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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Work capability issues and ESA  →  Thread

ESA transfers to UC due to natural migration

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Dan_Manville
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Jon (CHDCA) - 16 February 2018 03:08 PM

Dan Manville also obtained a copy of that form last year, see post #23 in this thread. Comparing that pdf version to this spreadsheet version, I think it’s fairly clear that DWP truncated the form for Dan in their response, and somehow cut it off at the end of page 1. Hence the earlier comments in this thread expressing surprise that the form apparently failed to gather info about pre-existing LCW status.

They told CPAG that they’d modified the process; hence Martin’s request when he saw their reply to mine.

I’m wondering whether they are still using the old forms for the couple of claimants I’ve seen so far.

Jon (CHDCA)
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Ha, yes sorry I didn’t read the preamble. But to my mind, the earlier version is clearly just an incomplete version of the same form, isn’t it? It just cuts off half way through the section on Sanctions at the bottom of the first page. If that is genuinely the version they were using to gather information on UC claims (as opposed to this just being an error in supplying the stationery for the FOI request), then that’s pretty shocking. It would be like if DWP accidentally sent out a bunch of ESA50s or PIP2s with only half the questions.

Dan_Manville
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I’ve just said this on the terminal illness thread but worth repeating myself; Mr Couling told us that the CM checks CIS for the WCA status. These FOIs says otherwise…

[ Edited: 19 Feb 2018 at 10:06 am by Dan_Manville ]
dizzymare
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elements are still being missed from claims. I have had two people this week where the LCWRA element is missing from their claim! Both in the support group on ESA.

One person has tried to provide proof to the work coach and was told that proof wasn’t needed.  For the second person, I had a conversation with the work coach at the local JC and the member of staff knew nothing whatsoever about the ability to add this on from the start of the claim. People are still being asked to complete UC50’s, provide medical certificates and having work requirments imposed when they need not have them

We have raised (again!) with the partnership manager!

Andrew Dutton
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dizzymare - 23 February 2018 04:58 PM

elements are still being missed from claims. I have had two people this week where the LCWRA element is missing from their claim! Both in the support group on ESA.

One person has tried to provide proof to the work coach and was told that proof wasn’t needed.  For the second person, I had a conversation with the work coach at the local JC and the member of staff knew nothing whatsoever about the ability to add this on from the start of the claim. People are still being asked to complete UC50’s, provide medical certificates and having work requirments imposed when they need not have them

We have raised (again!) with the partnership manager!

This raises yet again the question of how much the UC Service Centre tells the Jobcentre.

I have come across cases where the UCSC knows fine well that the claimant is disabled but they tell the Jobcentre nothing - JC then treats the person as fit for work, demands sick notes, UC50 etc etc etc.

If it is true that the UCSC knows and the Jobcentres do not, this is appalling.

Dan_Manville
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Andrew Dutton - 26 February 2018 09:49 AM

demands sick notes, UC50 etc etc etc.

.

The WCA is triggered either at day 1 or day 29 of the UC claim anyway; everyone apart from Special Rules will be reassessed. Even giving them a sick note for more than 8 weeks triggers a WCA; they are asking ESA conversions to provide sick notes.

I am wondering whether this whole process is PSED compliant but unless someone seeks JR there’s nothing we can do.

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Dan Manville - 26 February 2018 03:55 PM

The WCA is triggered either at day 1 or day 29 of the UC claim anyway; everyone apart from Special Rules will be reassessed. Even giving them a sick note for more than 8 weeks triggers a WCA; they are asking ESA conversions to provide sick notes.

I am wondering whether this whole process is PSED compliant but unless someone seeks JR there’s nothing we can do.

Dan or anyone else - are you still seeing cases where people migrating directly from ESA to UC (with no gap) are not being paid the appropriate component? And are being put through the WCA/asked to provide fit notes? Neil Couling said in his letter that that should not happen if there is no gap between claims. He said to raise specific cases with him if it wasn’t happening - maybe that’s what we need to do?

 

Andrew Dutton
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Dan Manville - 26 February 2018 03:55 PM
Andrew Dutton - 26 February 2018 09:49 AM

demands sick notes, UC50 etc etc etc.

.

The WCA is triggered either at day 1 or day 29 of the UC claim anyway; everyone apart from Special Rules will be reassessed. Even giving them a sick note for more than 8 weeks triggers a WCA; they are asking ESA conversions to provide sick notes.

I am wondering whether this whole process is PSED compliant but unless someone seeks JR there’s nothing we can do.

I can’t see that UC has any sweeping power to send all existing ESA claimants back through the WCA sausage-machine.

Reg 19 UC Transitional Provisions Regs takes them from ESA to UC without the need for a new WCA and their existing ESA status should be paid from the first UC payment.

Reg 41 UC Regs allows that a new WCA may (not must) be carried out where there is an existing determination and the SoS wishes to determine if there has been a relevant change of circumstances or whether the previous determination was made in ignorance of or based on a mistake as to a material fact.

Unless I’m missing something, that is not carte blanche to re-check everyone, they would have to justify it, otherwise it’s a blanket policy - ?

 

 

Dan_Manville
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Andrew Dutton - 27 February 2018 01:57 PM
Dan Manville - 26 February 2018 03:55 PM
Andrew Dutton - 26 February 2018 09:49 AM

demands sick notes, UC50 etc etc etc.

.

The WCA is triggered either at day 1 or day 29 of the UC claim anyway; everyone apart from Special Rules will be reassessed. Even giving them a sick note for more than 8 weeks triggers a WCA; they are asking ESA conversions to provide sick notes.

I am wondering whether this whole process is PSED compliant but unless someone seeks JR there’s nothing we can do.

I can’t see that UC has any sweeping power to send all existing ESA claimants back through the WCA sausage-machine.

Reg 19 UC Transitional Provisions Regs takes them from ESA to UC without the need for a new WCA and their existing ESA status should be paid from the first UC payment.

Reg 41 UC Regs allows that a new WCA may (not must) be carried out where there is an existing determination and the SoS wishes to determine if there has been a relevant change of circumstances or whether the previous determination was made in ignorance of or based on a mistake as to a material fact.

Unless I’m missing something, that is not carte blanche to re-check everyone, they would have to justify it, otherwise it’s a blanket policy - ?

 

it’s in the guidance; I’ll try and dig it out on the bus home.

In other news; it’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the call hanndlers aren’t trained to distinguish between ESA transitions and new claimants!!!

Dan_Manville
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edit; link had gaps in it.

Have a look at “day 29 activities”. On my reading everyone is going through a WCA.

[ Edited: 27 Feb 2018 at 03:55 pm by Dan_Manville ]

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Andrew Dutton
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‘In other news; it’s becoming increasingly clear to me that the call hanndlers aren’t trained to distinguish between ESA transitions and new claimants!!!’

This guidance doesn’t really seem to, either. But I wonder if it is talking only about completely new claimants, and that the people referred to as being treated as having LCW/LCWRA are those who have not yet had a WCA, in circumstances listed in Schs 8 and 9 of the UC Regs.

I’d still argue that anyone with existing LCW/LCWRA from ESA should remain so without an automatic new WCA, subject to:

Reg 19 (UC Transitional Provisions Regs) - under (2) and(3) of this, existing claimants are treated as having LCW/LCWRA on UC, and then (7) says that where a claimant is treated as having one of these, ‘The SoS may at any time make a fresh determination…in accordance with the [UC] Regulations’.

But that leads me back to Reg 41- a new WCA may (not must) be carried out where (etc etc)  I can’t see good cause for a new WCA until the old one is due to be reviewed at a set date, or there is good reason to request a new WCA under UC Reg 41. If DWP treats this as an opportunity to reopen loads of/all old ESA claims, I’d still argue they’d have to justify each and every one.

 

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Dan Manville - 27 February 2018 03:37 PM

edit; link had gaps in it.

Have a look at “day 29 activities”. On my reading everyone is going through a WCA.

but that refers to the 29th day of sickness so isn’t that about new claims - and Neil Couling’s letter did say it was only if there was a gap in claim that there would be a day 29 referral

dizzymare
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yes Daphne - I now have three.

1. where no LCWRA and claimant has now been told that because his WCA is now due for review, they are not going to pay LCWRA until this has happened (and will only add what he is due from the start of the claim for UC once this has happened) The review is set for tomorrow. I have called JC and pointed out that at the time of the claim, he was in the SG as so LCWRA should be added. A review date is not a decision and that LCWRA element should be in payment until such time that there is a determination that he no longer has LCWRA.  I mentioned the MGP1 that Dan Manville got a copy of under FOI and the HC knew nothing about this! (this is the manager)
2. as above - no LCWRA - manager is looking into this for me
3. A claimant with ‘locked in’ syndrome who has now had a visit from DWP, and his Mother is now being asked to provide a fit note! (again, a transfer from ESA and in the support group)

This is quite clearly a procedural issue and I am very worried that if I have picked up three in a week - how many are walking around with £318.76 missing from their UC claim and they don’t realise this.

Daphne
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Thanks dizzymare -I’ll raise it via stakeholders but since Neil Couling asked for specific examples would you like me to send details to him? You will need to direct message me names and national insurance numbers for that. Out of interest when did they migrate over -the DWP acknowledge issues before June 2017 but not since

dizzymare
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HI Daphne

all cases are this year (Jan I believe but will check this for exact dates); im out of office at present, but will direct message you with details this afternoon

thanks for your help
regards
Sharon