Crazy Non-Dependent Deductions

Thanks Duncan

Still not happy and not sure just yet.

So someone almost identical who only works 15 hours earning £300 weekly with Child Tax at £100, Child Benefit at £34 and CSA / maintenance at £70 weekly giving her a gross income at £504 then the very minimum non dep deduction then applies?

Child Benefit and maintenance would be ignored for the claimant but not for the non dep, strange.

Why then does every benefit calculator programme I have ever seen only ask about non deps EARNINGS and nothing else?

There is a DLA claim in and pending and yes the mums an IB / IS claimant.

You’re right with your second scenario. Non-dep deductions have different rules about gross/net income as well as inclusion of incomes that are otherwise disregarded.  Self-employed non-deps have their total business income counted according to the letter of the regs, which is even harder to explain to clients.

bigbill - 01 November 2011 08:12 PM

Why then does every benefit calculator programme I have ever seen only ask about non deps EARNINGS and nothing else?.

I can’t speak for anyone else but Ferret’s systems ask for ‘Gross income including earnings’.

Gareth Morgan - 02 November 2011 10:31 AM

bigbill - 01 November 2011 08:12 PM

Why then does every benefit calculator programme I have ever seen only ask about non deps EARNINGS and nothing else?.

I can’t speak for anyone else but Ferret’s systems ask for ‘Gross income including earnings’.

Simarly, our systems ask for ‘gross income’

Lorraine Cooper - 02 November 2011 09:35 AM

You’re right with your second scenario. Non-dep deductions have different rules about gross/net income as well as inclusion of incomes that are otherwise disregarded.  Self-employed non-deps have their total business income counted according to the letter of the regs, which is even harder to explain to clients.

Just for info, this is open to argument.  The DWP has long since taken the view that not even legitimate business expenses should be allowed for self-employed non-deps.  I disagree and would argue that until legitimate (genuine) expenses are allowed, the monies don’t have the character of income.  As such, the gross income is the amount AFTER legit expenses have been deducted.  There is some case law that, arguably, supports this approach but it would take a much longer post and much greater analysis and unfortunately I don’t have the gas to do that at this time.

I fully agree with Kevin re the self employed and I suspect the case law he refers to is R(FIS)4/85 and R(FIS)2/88

To go back to whether or not gross income includes working tax credit and whether the chilcare element should form part of that income, the answer is yes on both counts (CH/2631/2008)

The turn to us public calculator here https://www.turn2us.entitledto.co.uk/entitlementcalculator.aspx says this

“The rate of non-dependant deduction depends on how much the non-dependant earns. So that we can calculate the correct amount please enter the GROSS (before tax and National Insurance) amount that the non-dependant earns each week.”

And here https://www.turn2us.entitledto.co.uk/nondependants.aspx?sid=13&cid=5d97b898-dbbb-4a22-b778-7e714062589e asks for gross earnings only nothing else.

I hope the DLA care is awarded it will save a lot of hassle and expense

It is disappointing that public calculators such as these are so misleading.  In my view, the law is sufficiently clear that all types of income count (except where expressly excluded and subject to the arguable issue on expenses and self-employed earnings).  If I was advising a clmt, I wouldn’t be offering to assist in any appeal arguing that tax credits / child benefit should not be taken into account for non-deps.  It would simply be a waste of resources.  But, that’s just my opinion.

On a lighter note….

bigbill - 31 October 2011 09:05 PM

Elderly daughter (30)

I thought I was only approaching middle age but now I realise I am well past my sell by date!

Thanks to all who posted.

It seems unfair that Child Benefit and Child Support count as income for the non-dep but not the claimant, I feel this has been overlooked when these disregards were applied to the claimants claim.

But thats how it is for now so move on.

Many thanks for these posts and for pointing out the error on the non-dependents page of the Turn2us benefit calculator, which we (Entitledto) supply. We have now fixed the error so that the questions and help page refer to gross income rather then gross earnings. Please tell us if you have any further comments on the questions or on the help page at http://www.turn2ushelp.entitledto.co.uk/viewhelp.aspx?sid=13&ctyid=0&helpfile=nondependants