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contribution-based JSA in a UC area
How does CB-JSA work now that UC is being rolled out? I.e. if someone claims UC and they fit the criteria for CB-JSA how does the UC application process fish them out? Or is CB-JSA paid through UC?
I think I understand the factors affecting whether someone can claim UC over IR-JSA, but I’m confused about how CB-JSA fits into the picture for those who become unemployed after a long period of working and paying NI.
Thanks
Hi geep - this is a long-standing problem we are still going over with the DWP. The problem is the online system won’t let them claim JSA so they claim UC and then no-one advises them that they should then put in a claim for cbJSA. We have asked the DWP if work coaches could advise claimants to apply if they might have entitlement but they have said this isn’t possible - any new training for work coaches apparently has to go through layers of bureaucracy!!!
So it appears the claimant has to work it out for themselves but because the online system won’t let them in they have to do a telephone claim. I will chase this up with the DWP again as with the roll-out of digital this is going to become more of an issue.
There’s a bit more about it in this thread here - http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/8834
A client of ours has just been made redundant, was forced down the UC route, enquired about CJSA and was told that it was ‘nonsense’ to think that she may be entitled to it. This is very,very, very not good, to borrow a phrase.
and there’s this
https://www.dwpe-services.direct.gov.uk/portal/page/portal/jsaol/lp
an online jsa claim form
which sometimes comes up in welsh, but i got to it in english from here
Does this issue just meant that people who should be claiming CB-JSA are allowed to claim UC instead? In my client’s case it means he starts receiving benefits income a couple of weeks later, because under JSA the last wages from his previous job are not counted as income because he earned them before claiming, but under UC they do count and so he can’t claim UC until after the last wages have been paid to him.
It’s almost like the DWP hasn’t thought about how people will claim CB-JSA once UC has been introduced. Surely not?
They may need UC as well as cont JSA if, for example, they have housing costs. However, if you know that they will only be entitled to cont JSA with no UC top-up then I would push them to make a telephone claim for that from the start. They could claim UC first but then if they have a successful cont JSA claim it will just wipe the UC out.
So it’s not possible for them to claim HB if they’re in a UC area? I thought that if they were refused UC they would stay in the legacy benefits system and be able to claim either type of JSA and HB? Think I might be getting confused between the gateway conditions for the rollout of UC and the normal criteria for claiming UC.
I think the key is that if you fit the gateway, you’re in the UC system, ‘new’ CBJSA applies and no HB, housing costs covered by UC.
if you don’t fit the gateway, all the old system applies.
But, as you say, with ‘full service’ areas it’s all different.
We’ve sent a list of a dozen questions to DWP to try to clarify some issues, not least what they are going to do to let people know they can claim CBJSA and HOW to claim it!
As ‘new’ CBJSA is paid fortnightly in arrears (as far as I can see - I had assumed DWP would align it with UC but it appears not)) it is surely better for people to get that, earned on their NICs and not means tested support, than to be waiting for UC and claiming repayable hardship payments.
A thought that may not work out - I wonder if it is best to claim ‘new’ JSA and UC at the same time in all cases, because those who have housing costs need the UC element, and also (ref. Daphne’s comment #5) if it’s best for people whose CBJSA would equal their UC to claim both anyway - would a UC claim be open but at ‘nil’ payment, and would that track along until CBJSA stops after 6 months? That would put UC in to payment as quickly as possible, save the claimant having to claim UC and do the 5 or 6 week wait as their CBJSA runs out - ?
If they’re in a digital/full service area they cannot start a new claim for housing benefit. However, if they’re in a gateway area they could claim contJSA and HB and avoid going down the UC route. But if they put a claim in for UC first then help with housing costs would be met by that and they will be in the lobster pot which it is not always easy to get out of -
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/9752/
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/9073/
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/8394/
I may have got this wrong then - I had thought that if the person effectively fits the gateway, they may claim CBJSA but that it would be ‘new’ JSA as it’s claimed in a UC area and that they would not be able to claim HB alongside it - ?
I thought that Reg 13 of the UC (transitional provisions) regs 2013 allows someone to make backdated claims of JSA and HB if they mistakenly claim UC, but my head is spinning now so I’ll have to think about this later. Perhaps a Citizens Income would save a lot of hassle with benefits (and lose us our jobs)! I assume Switzerland voted against it- haven’t checked the news today…
In gateway areas I think it goes like this:
- claiming UC, JSA or ESA causes JSA(ib) and ESA(ir) to be abolished for the purpose of that claim, but leaves JSA and ESA as stand-alone “new style” contribution based benefits
- if you started off by claiming JSA only (not UC) the award could only be new-style JSA(c). If you needed to top that up with means-tested help you would have a choice: if you can make do with JSA and HB, you can claim HB (or remain on HB that you were already getting while in work). Or you can claim UC: it’s up to you. For many people it won’t make any difference but there are pros and cons
- once you claim UC any existing HB award must end; and if you have a UC claim pending or a UC award in place you cannot make a new claim for HB alongside it (unless you live in “specified accommodation”, which you don’t if you have satisfied the gateway conditions)
The Transitional Provisions Regs allow any legacy claim that was initiated prior to the UC claim to proceed to completion, but only in respect of the period up to the UC claim. It is not possible to launch a completely new legacy claim (not even for a backdated period prior to UC) while you are a UC claimant as defined in Reg 6 of the TP Regs.
Switzerland did vote against - http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/9840/
Reg 13 only allows backdated claims of HB/JSA if the UC claim was mistakenly made and no payment has yet been made. But in your scenario the UC claim wouldn’t be made mistakenly - it would be an option as HB Anorak says
Thanks, Daphne and HB Anorak - this gives people more latitude than i had thought, which is good. I suppose. The trouble we have on the ground is that DWP have got to everyone first and told them to claim UC and not even made them aware that CBJSA exists, so these people are lobsterised.
Gawd, this is getting complicated now. The Reg 13 you are describing there was in the 2013 Transitional Provisions Regs, which were revoked with limited savings by the 2014 Transitional Provisions Regs. Reg 13 was saved but only in relation to a UC claim that had already been made before the 2014 Regs came into force. See Reg 3(2) of the 2014 Regs.
As Reg 13 of the 2013 Regs was eminently sensible you would expect to see it remade in the 2014 Regs, but I am struggling to see any equivalent. Maybe it iwas considered unnecessary because, as soon as it comes to light that you should not have claimed UC, you cease to be a UC claimant as defined in 2014 Reg 6 and are free to claim legacy benefits with whatever backdating provisions they offer? But that will often be inadequate to bridge the gap.
EDIT: got it - new Article 3A of the No 9 Order says you have a month to claim legacy benefits after DWP informs you shouldn’t have claimed UC. Legacy bens then automatically backdated.
[ Edited: 8 Jun 2016 at 03:40 pm by HB Anorak ]Well, I’m disappointed that the 2013 Transitional Provisions Regs have gone already - we were just getting to know each other.
My client:
- Lost job, claimed UC but answered a question incorrectly about expected income in the next month.
- Before receiving a UC payment, he received his last wages from previous job, and as a result the UC was closed as invalid and he was told to make a new UC claim (which he did).
So, his second UC claim is currently being processed but no payments received yet. On the date of the second UC claim he did qualify for it. But without the transitional regs 2013, does it mean he cannot go back and do any backdated claims for JSA/HB? He’s in the lobster pot?
As noted in my edit above, Article 3A of the No 9 Commencement Order allows him a month in which to claim HB and JSA after DWP told him that the UC claim was invalid.
aaargh I thought UC was supposed to be simplifying the benefits system…
Yes, I had thought about adding a closing sentence: “it’s a good job they have simplified the benefits system, otherwise people might struggle to understand all this”!
People maybe, but surely WELFs should be able to understand it…feel pretty demoralised by it all
The way the roll-out is being managed through a huge stack of commencement orders plus two sets of transitional provisions regs (one now revoked and replaced by the other), in addition to the regular UC Regs, D&A Regs and C&P Regs that will govern UC once it reaches “steady state”, all modified in various ways for the slowly expanding “full service” digital areas, is hugely intimidating. It is so easy to miss something crucial. There is a thread from a couple of months back where I suggested ways of claiming legacy benefits in “full service” areas having clean missed the part of the digital service commencement orders that stops you from doing that. How anyone is expected to stay on top of this and do their day job I do not know.
Just to flag up that the Revenue Benefits website does at least have a page where all of the different orders and amendment regs can be found.
Transition to universal credit: Secondary Legislation: Commencement Orders
The difficulty is that you’ve still got to trawl through them all to find what’s been inserted and where to understand what the latest version of the law actually is and there doesn’t seem to be anywhere online where this stuff has been consolidated, so it’s tremendously confusing.
and it’s all so simple that people don’t need help, let alone lawyers and legal aid
AAAAARRRRGGGHHHH
To be fair, legislation.gov.uk has done a fair bit of consolidation. The main thing to look out for there are amendments relating only to digital service areas that have been consolidated into the main text as if they apply across the board. Be particularly suspicious of any margin notes referring to amendments around November 2014.
I’m finding it truly scary and I know my colleagues share the feeling that we’re wading in the dark with very little idea of whether what we think is the case in any given UC scenario really is the case. I feel increasingly like you do in one of those nightmares where you’re about to sit an exam and realise you don’t understand any of the questions. I’m concerned we’re going to miss something crucial and I just hate that feeling of not being at all certain whether whoever you’re speaking to (if, indeed, you can speak to anyone real) at the DWP is talking bull or not. Horrible sensation.
As noted in my edit above, Article 3A of the No 9 Commencement Order allows him a month in which to claim HB and JSA after DWP told him that the UC claim was invalid.
HB Anorak, thanks for finding Article 3A of the No 9 Commencement Order, but what is the full title of the document that I can find it in? I’ve had a hunt in various bits of legislation and haven’t found that bit so I must be looking in the wrong ones.
Thanks
Its full glorious title is The Welfare Reform Act 2012 (Commencement No. 9 and Transitional and Transitory Provisions and Commencement No. 8 and Saving and Transitional Provisions (Amendment)) Order 2013. You see why I shortened it ...
Reasonably well consolidated version available on link below ... at least for the 2015-onwards four-tranche areas. For any earlier sites there are some slight modifications, and it doesn’t apply to digital/full service areas at all.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/983/pdfs/uksi_20130983_310815_en.pdf
Amazing, thanks so much. You have saved a grown-up from a full-on sob at his desk.
My esteemed and incredibly brainy colleague Julia is in the middle of preparing a briefing on the whole CB-JSA /UC issue- as has been said there are so many variables and pros and cons to the options. (Plus with theory and practice not always coinciding you do wonder sometimes whether it’s worth advising someone to take a particular route knowing that it might be met with refusal/confusion/delays - more hassle for the claimant.)
Anyway will let you know when it’s written.
and there’s this
https://www.dwpe-services.direct.gov.uk/portal/page/portal/jsaol/lp
an online jsa claim form
which sometimes comes up in welsh, but i got to it in english from here
I’ve just realised that this JSA form file has been password protected to stop anyone printing it, has anyone got a version that can be printed, please? It’s quite urgent as a client wants to collect it today!
Cheers
I don’t know if this old version will still be acceptable:
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/?ACT=39&fid=5&aid=398_HUhAPeie8WUC6IyYElUz&board_id=1