Forum Home → Discussion → Disability benefits → Thread
PIP Descriptor Anomalies
Why does Descriptor 1a - 1e only refer to ‘simple meals’ when the term simple meal is not present in 1f! Therefore is 1f requiring the applicant to prepare several courses or several different meals at once!
1. Preparing food.
f. Cannot prepare and cook food
Secondly what does this mean…
10. Making budgeting decisions .
b. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make complex budgeting decisions.
The Part 1 Interpretation states…
(a) calculating household and personal budgets;
(b) managing and paying bills; and
(c) planning future purchases;
So (a)&(b) take care of utility bills then what does (c) refer to ..... when to buy or sell shares, when to buy or sell your house, gold, oil etc.
Why does Descriptor 1a - 1e only refer to ‘simple meals’ when the term simple meal is not present in 1f! Therefore is 1f requiring the applicant to prepare several courses or several different meals at once!
1. Preparing food.
f. Cannot prepare and cook foodSecondly what does this mean…
10. Making budgeting decisions .
b. Needs prompting or assistance to be able to make complex budgeting decisions.The Part 1 Interpretation states…
(a) calculating household and personal budgets;(b) managing and paying bills; and
(c) planning future purchases;
So (a)&(b) take care of utility bills then what does (c) refer to ..... when to buy or sell shares, when to buy or sell your house, gold, oil etc.
Food and meal are different things. Food is an element of a meal so 1f is talking about being unable to even contribute to the making of a meal.
You might need to clarify your latter point. A planned purchase is surely referring to the ability to identify a product or service; understand its cost; affordability and whether or not you currently have the money to afford it or can deal with credit arrangement. Every possible aspect of the plain English version of “planning future purchases” I’d have thought.
Happy to be convinced there are anomalies but without further clarification I’m not seeing them.
Am I right in thinking that Descriptor 3B(i)or(ii) which scores one (1) point is only at all relevant if the same client scores three (3) points from Descriptor 4E. If 4E is not satisfied then what is the point (pardon the pun) in having Descriptor 3B. Likewise if the client is awarded 4E but not 3B then 4E just might as well be a 2 point scoring descriptor in any event. Therefore what the DWP are looking for is a particular client who needs to use a dossette box for their medication and who also needs help in and out of a bath. Or could you argue that if the client needs help to get into the bath then the bath itself is an aid and that the water (or any lotion or bath salts added) is actually medication and then the two (2) descriptors could possible go hand in hand. Any ideas!
Think I’m missing the point (sorry- didn’t mean to make a pun there!)
What’s the connection between needing help/supervision to take medication/monitor a health condition and needing help to get in/out of a bath? Don’t see where you’re coming from.
That’s precisely my question - what good is the one (1) pointer or three (3) pointer on their own. Secondly does medication have to be taken by mouth. Can medication be a prescribed medication in the form of a liquid that is placed in a bath eg for people who experience psoriasis or other skin conditions. Can the bath be deemed to be an aid!
So the issue is: all the other points available in the PIP activities are even-numbered, and the thresholds are at 8 and 12 ponts. Therefore, one point on its own from 3b is never going to add on to points you gain elsewhere to actually tip you over into getting a higher level of PIP, unless it’s in addition to the three points available from 4e.
Similarly, they (almost) might as well have called 4e a 2-point descriptor instead of a 3-pointer, because in every scenario except where you also score that one point under 3b, that 3 points doesn’t get you anything that two points wouldn’t have availed.
And while we’re at it: why bother to give the Mobility descriptors 1d and 2d ten points, instead of eight? It only gets you the standard rate, just like eight points would do. And if someone also scores 4 points in the other mobility activity, then they get Enhanced Rate either way (10+4 makes you no better off than 8+4).
(There are admittedly some other passporting issues with mobility, which would have to be dealt with)
Can the bath be deemed to be an aid!
I have an application for leave to appeal awaiting determination on that issue. In my case I’m arguing that a claimant’s bed can be an aid where dressing is concerned. I feel the interpretation of “device” will be pivotal.
I think less so a bath in a case of psoriasis as a claimant would be using it as a bath as well as an aid to administering medication; it’s use has not been adapted in any way, but sitting on the bed to dress; where the claimant’s physical condition prevents then from dressing standing involves adapting the use of the bed to a degree.
Can the bath be deemed to be an aid!
I have an application for leave to appeal awaiting determination on that issue. In my case I’m arguing that a claimant’s bed can be an aid where dressing is concerned. I feel the interpretation of “device” will be pivotal.
I think less so a bath in a case of psoriasis as a claimant would be using it as a bath as well as an aid to administering medication; it’s use has not been adapted in any way, but sitting on the bed to dress; where the claimant’s physical condition prevents then from dressing standing involves adapting the use of the bed to a degree.
So someone self-administering medication via a pre-filled pen style injection system is using an aid or device?
Just on aids - interesting decision just published recently says that an asthma inhaler is not an aid for purposes of mobility. Medication is what improves the breathing - fact that medication is administered using a device is irrelevant.
[ Edited: 30 Oct 2015 at 09:54 am by Daphne ]Can the bath be deemed to be an aid!
I have an application for leave to appeal awaiting determination on that issue. In my case I’m arguing that a claimant’s bed can be an aid where dressing is concerned. I feel the interpretation of “device” will be pivotal.
I think less so a bath in a case of psoriasis as a claimant would be using it as a bath as well as an aid to administering medication; it’s use has not been adapted in any way, but sitting on the bed to dress; where the claimant’s physical condition prevents then from dressing standing involves adapting the use of the bed to a degree.
Really interesting argument. What are the ways in which a bed is adapted for the purposes of dressing? You sit on it. You place your clothes on it. How does that differ from how most people dress? You could, I guess, pile the pillows up but surely that just emphasizes that the key issue is the height of the bed. I am of course playing devils advocate to an extent but I’m interested in the detail as I’ve come across a number of people for whom I would argue the bathroom sink and toilet are clearly, to my mind, aids to dressing.
Can the bath be deemed to be an aid!
I have an application for leave to appeal awaiting determination on that issue. In my case I’m arguing that a claimant’s bed can be an aid where dressing is concerned. I feel the interpretation of “device” will be pivotal.
I think less so a bath in a case of psoriasis as a claimant would be using it as a bath as well as an aid to administering medication; it’s use has not been adapted in any way, but sitting on the bed to dress; where the claimant’s physical condition prevents then from dressing standing involves adapting the use of the bed to a degree.
Really interesting argument. What are the ways in which a bed is adapted for the purposes of dressing? You sit on it. You place your clothes on it. How does that differ from how most people dress? You could, I guess, pile the pillows up but surely that just emphasizes that the key issue is the height of the bed. I am of course playing devils advocate to an extent but I’m interested in the detail as I’ve come across a number of people for whom I would argue the bathroom sink and toilet are clearly, to my mind, aids to dressing.
Most people might use it for convenience’s sake however where that assistance is required due to the claimant’s physical condition then you are adapting the bed to use it for sitting on; don’t forget that it’s designed to lie on… The converse is; as you rightly point out, that people leaning on the sink to get off the bog or putting a chair in the shower of their own volition aren’t using “devices”. However they are, in fact adapting the use of a chair to use as an aid to showering; they have come up with a “device” to assist in showering…
The Judge in this case laughed me off; apparently loads of people sit on the to dress, but that’s the wrong end of the telespcope to my mind; whether you need to sit on the bed is the starting point.
When does something cease to be an aid. On page 41 of the Boots Mobility and daily living aids catalogue they advertise wooden bed raisers…
“A hardwood cube, with one recess in the top and an additional wooden base for greater stability. Height 13cm, Pack of 4. Max . total load 380kg/60st for £45.95.
When does something cease to be an aid. On page 41 of the Boots Mobility and daily living aids catalogue they advertise wooden bed raisers…
“A hardwood cube, with one recess in the top and an additional wooden base for greater stability. Height 13cm, Pack of 4. Max . total load 380kg/60st for £45.95.
I had something very similar for my desk in Birmingham.
I wonder, would 4 blocks of Yew cut to size by my tree surgeon mate constitute “devices” or is the recess such an “adaptation” as to pass the “device” threshold?
Taking nutrition
b Needs supervision to be able to take nutrition 2 points
d Needs prompting to be able to take nutrition 4 points
Would it not make more sense for the points scoring to be reversed for these descriptors?
I understand now. Sorry for being thick. I blame the chocolate goat. The goat (as opposed to elephant) in the room in fact….(sorry- wrong thread. It’s been a long week. Off for a little lie down now…)
[ Edited: 30 Oct 2015 at 01:38 pm by 1964 ]We have a 23-year old with learning difficulties who also happens to be an insulin-dependent diabetic, and uses a FreeStyle Blood Glucose monitor.
We are arguing that despite what is said in PIP Guidance it is an aid, because she would struggle to manage chemical methods of glucose monitoring, and also that using the meter gives her better control of her sugar levels.
However, even should we win that argument, the one point she would score would be of no value, because she wouldn’t score 3 points on the washing & bathing activity.