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Measuring distances for PIP
I seem to have got myself into a little ‘discussion’ with the DWP over the distance ofa shop from my client’s house. I measured it on google maps but the DWP argue that this can be inaccurate by 80 metres (which, to be fair to them, it can be due to rounding up and down). How do other people measure distances and what seems to be accepted as better evidence by Tribunals? I have a GPS watch (mad keen runner) which accurately measures distances athough to measure a very short distance it would only measure to the nearest 10m - would this be sufficient? The only other way I can think of is with a trundle wheel (we used these in school) if you can still buy them (and if I can count that that many clicks without getting confused!)
How do other people manage this?
I’ve never yet had a tribunal refuse to accept a Google map distance as being close enough.
I’d be tempted to turn it on its head and put the onus on the DWP to come up with a figure if they dispute the Google distance.
I have never come across this problem before but if you want accuracy you could use an Ordnance Survey map and a map measurer (just like a mini trundle wheel) or a piece of string to measure the route and scale up accordingly.
I have attended at least two tribunal hearings where the panel have themselves used google maps to establish some idea of distances.
I wouldn’t trust the DWP to provide accurate measurements. The alleged distance from the car-park gate to the entrance of our local assessment venue varies between 57metres and 250 metres according to the alleged walking capabilities of the client! While I am aware Manchester is occasionally subject to seismic events, no-one is going to tell me that the car park of Albert Bridge House regularly expands and contracts by nearly 200 metres!
We use often refer to Google maps (taking a printout to the hearing) and tribunals accept an estimate based on them and also find them useful to get an idea where local ‘landmarks’ are if they are not familiar with the area. It is not so easy (or cheap) to get very large scale 1:25 or 1:50 OS maps these days that would allow an accurate use of a cartographers / draftsmans scale rule ( I worked in a drawing office with such maps in the days before IT!). I would suggest Google maps are not as unreliable as DWP contend!
We purchased a calibrated measuring wheel from a well known website and measured the distances around and inside our local tribunal venue. This is pinned to the notice board in the tribunal venue office! If there was ever a dispute about a distance, for example from claimants house to local shop, we could now request an adjournment and go and measure the disputed distance!
The issue of tribunals using google maps was tackled by Judge Jacobs in CE/146/2014.
In brief, he holds that a tribunal is entitled to use google maps to check distances, but must present evidence to appellant for comment -
http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4218
From the rightsnet summary -
“The Judge commented that the use of Google maps to check distances was becoming an increasing feature of ESA and disability living allowance appeals.
He held that he could see no objection to obtaining and taking account on such evidence. Tribunals were entitled to make use of their local knowledge and general knowledge which could be obtained from reference sources, which could include Google maps.
The courts have sanctioned the use of information obtained on the initiative on tribunals and, although CIB/3788/2008 held that a tribunal chair had acted improperly by contacting a GP’s surgery to check the authenticity of documents, this was different from using a publically available online source to check notoriously unreliable estimates of distances.
The tribunal erred, however, by failing to put the evidence it obtained from Google maps to the claimant for comment. There is a basic requirement that tribunal proceedings are conducted fairly in accordance with the principles of natural justice. The conflicting evidence about the distance to the local supermarket was clearly material to the decision and should have been explored and resolved with the claimant, who was present at the hearing. “
Hi,
Thank you for your comments! I think that I am inclined to work on the basis that google maps is accurate enough and that it is unfair for the DWP to rip holes in that and not actually come up with any measurement themselves. If the Tribunal is unhappy with that then they will have to adjourn and prescribe some other way to measure the distance.
Thank you for your help :-)
I think there’s a danger of getting too hung up on the precision of distances. The better questions are all surely going to be around reliably, repeatedly etc.
A discrepancy of 80m may or may not be relevant. It would obviously depend upon the overall distance but I would, mischievously admittedly, ask DWP for their evidence of the discrepancy. Upon what specifically is the assertion based… apart from Googles own suggestion that such maps should not be used for anything scientific for example and the fact that it’s generally accepted it can be inaccurate to somewhere between 30 and 50m. Not 80m.
We use often refer to Google maps (taking a printout to the hearing) and tribunals accept an estimate based on them and also find them useful to get an idea where local ‘landmarks’ are if they are not familiar with the area. It is not so easy (or cheap) to get very large scale 1:25 or 1:50 OS maps these days that would allow an accurate use of a cartographers / draftsmans scale rule ( I worked in a drawing office with such maps in the days before IT!). I would suggest Google maps are not as unreliable as DWP contend!
We purchased a calibrated measuring wheel from a well known website and measured the distances around and inside our local tribunal venue. This is pinned to the notice board in the tribunal venue office! If there was ever a dispute about a distance, for example from claimants house to local shop, we could now request an adjournment and go and measure the disputed distance!
If google aren’t quite up to scratch there appears to be a free download from Ordnance Survey
https://www.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/business-and-government/products/os-open-map-local.html
I use OS maps all the time as the Council has a license agreement with them and I can vouch for the fact that they are spot on.