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Tape recording of appeal hearings… allowed or not?
Hi
Due to the poor quality of, and delay in receiving, the written statements of reasons and written records of proceedings (average 6 to 8 months) of ESA appeals from our local tribunals, I recently made a request to have a hearing tape recorded.
This is a new hearing following a successful set aside of the previous decision.
My request was turned down with no reasons given. I received a phone message and have yet to receive a decision in writing.
Has anyone been able to get a hearing recorded?
Scottish tribunals are recorded (at least in the main centres, smaller ones may not be). A cd of the recording comes along with the statement of reasons.
At a recent TUG meeting I asked this question and it was confirmed that yes, hearings can be recorded however recorders are very limited and priority is given to those judges who have difficulty writing. I understand that a pilot - recording all hearings - will be going on shortly but I’m afraid I don’t have any further details at this time.
Was under the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that this had been piloted in the past but rather fallen to bits as that’s pretty much what the technology did. Even vaguer recall that it was something to do with the need to make 2 recordings and a problem with the process of doing that.
I think it imposes quite a high threshold on Clerks in terms of both recordings need to be successful so no party can accuse the other of tampering and, obviously, if you’re not going to get that right then the appellant and their rep. are going to be very unhappy not being allowed to take a copy of the hearing away.If a clerk messes up a decision before it’s issued then obviously that can be fixed. A recording can’t bar a re-hearing.
Could be wrong on all of the above but it’s ringing bells. Seem to recall they tried the IUC type tape machines and may have also tried HD recorders. Again, I think the latter had issues around the ability to edit far too easily.
Must admit I’ve always been shy of recording stuff as I think the recall of myself and an appellant is usually good enough. Throw in the fact that at least one member will almost always agree with any complaint you make against another member and I’ve never found it an especially compelling thing. On the other hand I can see many circumstances where it could be advantageous especially as tribunals come under further pressure to deliver quickly and in detail.
Manchester has facilities for POs to appear remotely on screen in PC cases. This was threatened in one overpayment case but failed to materialise. I would have been interested to see how this worked in practise and whether any aspect of their appearance was recorded.
What a scary prospect! I wonder if they would have appeared in shadow like whistleblowers do when being interviewed on TV?
What a scary prospect! I wonder if they would have appeared in shadow like whistleblowers do when being interviewed on TV?
Apparently it would have happened for my PC o/p case but there was an issue the previous day with the facility not having been set up on time as the clerk hadn’t arrived in Manchester in time. A huge pity as PS lost the case for absolutely sound reasons which, not being there, they have subsequently disputed and taken to UT. When it doubtless goes back to another appeal it will win again.
The PO in question was one who had rung me up previously, having not quite got to grips with the basics of evidence, and used the magical and ever so slightly loaded phrase “EVEN YOU must admit xxx owes the money and should pay it back.” Good positive, objective approach to WROs there :)
I had debated with the clerk and posited the idea that, when this does happen in one of my cases, we will place my iPhone below the screen (secreted away) and set up one of those talking apps that repeats everything you say in a silly voice.
It happened on our case about a year ago. It has advantages as facts could be established or not by the PO answers that helped the Judge to reach a decision and our client to win their case. The video link was not helped by a person in the room being hard of hearing so things had to be loud. It felt a bit like a Doris Stokes seance with the PO beaming his answers from what appeared to be filing cupboard in the north east. There was also a bit of a delay in asking and answering that added to this feeling. Progress and on balance it helped.
..It felt a bit like a Doris Stokes seance..
especially when the voice in the cupboard said “you’ll live till 100 me dear, the hearing won’t get any worse and the cat wants you to know he’s having a great time in’t next life”.
Many thanks all and I do hope they run a pilot on this very soon. I know they did a pilot on recording the WCAs but they only recorded 1st time claimants and not transition cases from IB or repeat assessments.
Scottish tribunals are recorded (at least in the main centres, smaller ones may not be). A cd of the recording comes along with the statement of reasons.
I much prefer the audio recording. I have always felt that with a written record you were more at the mercy of what the Judges version of events/answer/questions was.
Hi All
Just to update you….
A transcriber was in attendance at the hearing!!
Why not just say in response to my request that they would provide this service instead?
Anyway, my client’s appeal was successful, in part….
He was awarded 15 points for 17(b). We feel 17(a) was more appropriate and of course 17(a) is a schedule 3 descriptor but 17(b) isn’t. Surprise???
Also no points were awarded for any physical descriptors and client’s behaviour stems from severe pain caused by physical problems.
I have therefore requested a written statement of reasons, and a record of proceedings.
I’ll be popular!
My client has a further WCA later this month based on his new claim (since the 1st appeal decision). ESA state that this will still go ahead even though this decision has recommended that he not be assessed for 24 months. (However, decision that was under appeal was dated 5 Dec 2011).
Shouldn’t the new claim now be closed, as the re-listed appeal was successful, so the old claim should go back into payment?
ESA don’t know whether they are coming or going over this and as the cogs turn extremely slowly they won’t get their act together until after the date my client is due to attend his WCA!!
I have advised him to attend… this is being tape recorded following a request by the way, and if there are any issues we can always appeal!
I was at a Tribunal this week which I was informed was being tape-recorded.
Nice to see you on here Mr Colegate! I had a full day in Cardiff this week where the cases were all recorded. I’m not sure whether it’s an official pilot exercise or just certain judges are doing it. However, I’d give it a cautious welcome and say that it may prove useful where, as this week, I’d like a WSOR for one of the cases. My colleague in Glasgow tells me all their sessions are recorded in Scotland so it may be rolling out across the whole UK.