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Submitting appeals online as a rep - help for a dinosaur please?
As it says on the tin.
I’ve been continuing to submit appeals by post/paper - but I finally recognise there are some potential merits to the online process. A couple of questions;
I see there’s facility to ‘create an account’ and that this is necessary if you wish to save the appeal and come back and edit. I’m not really worried about that (I’ll submit any appeal at the point I have everything to hand) but does creating an account give me the opportunity to log back in at a later stage and submit a completely different appeal for a completely different client - i.e. using those same account details? That might have some benefit to it. If not, is there any practical benefit to creating an account as a rep?
Am I able to upload documents?
Anything else others might be usefully able to tell me? Pitfalls etc…..
Slightly niche pitfall - but the system only accepts one appeal per office per date of decision. This is actually quite useful for a straightforward appeal like PIP - it sometimes alerts you to the fact an appeal has already been lodged. Difficulty comes with overpayment appeals, where you probably have an entitlement decision, an OP decision and quite possibly a civil penalty all at once.
I’ve not found the best way to do this online yet - despite plentiful suggestions from exasperated HMCTS workers trying to sort it out. Ask for directions to create a composite appeal, etc etc. Some things probably best done on paper.
I’ve got around the overpayment/entitlement/civil penalty issue by lodging one appeal and giving these as 3 things that we disagree with.
I never set up an account to return to the appeal later. I think I might have tried this in the early days and there was some reason why it wasn’t possible as a rep, but now I can’t remember! I’d also be interested to know if other reps have done this.
Yes - I’ve always made clear in appeals submitted on paper that an appeal is against both the entitlement and recovery decision in o/p cases. It’s never been the case that either the DWP or HMCTS have had a problem with there being two appeals against two clearly interrelated decisions being submitted in the same document, so long as it’s made clear that is what is being done and the two decisions can be identified. Assuming there’s a facility to either upload documents or a free text box one can complete, I don’t see that as a problem.
I’ve never bothered to set up an account. My approach has always been to get the SSCS1 in as quickly as possible, even if the grounds of appeal are vague at that stage.
You can upload documents with the form. If I have drafted detailed grounds of appeal I usually put them in as a separate, properly formatted, document rather than type or paste the words into the box on the form. There is a size limit to how much you can put in by way of supporting documents.
I think the only reason I haven’t registered for an online account when submitting appeals is to avoid one extra task, and one extra password to (correctly) record.
I think the only reason I haven’t registered for an online account when submitting appeals is to avoid one extra task, and one extra password to (correctly) record.
I have a list of usernames and passwords stored on my laptop - see
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/18796/ *
I can add my own to it.
(* - this is a joke - I don’t)
I’m very digitally literate but I have yet to find any advantage to the digital process for me as a rep. or the appellant.
Notably HMCTS texts and emails are often randomly generated in relation to non-existent events and can often create more work for me and more stress for the appellant to no particular constructive end. At this point I’ve used it probably once and then only to de-stress a client worrying wholly unnecessarily that their appeal was going to be late.
I also object to the HMCTS process whereby a paper SSCS1 is used and yet magically HMCTS auto idiot starts generating multiple emails to me and the client based on the fact they have my work email address from that one appeal. They have no email address for me or the client and no mobile for the client (a deliberate act on my part) on the appeals in question and yet here come the emails.
I am all for digitalisation if it aids accessibility but it’s being used to gut HMCTS of clerks without yet being capable of remotely replicating the often excellent work they can do on individual cases and in this instance I don’t think the process is anywhere near fit for purpose.
I’m really surprised that others don’t regard the online form as superior. I always use it. It’s quick and easy. I invariably get an email back within minutes confirming as the rep, and another giving me the reference number and the target date for the DWP response. Then when the response is issued I get another email telling me that’s happened, so I know to look out for it and when to start agitating if it doesn’t turn up. What’s not to like?
The only vaguely irritating feature is a reminder email to put in evidence, which arrives well before the DWP response.
Quite a lot really.
- the issue already described with multiple appeals.
- the abject failure to address any reasonable adjustments raised by the digital route.
- the limitation of RAs to hearing issues and not pre or post hearing issues.
- the use of the emails and texts as I have described even when you have not given consent.
- the random generation of same. I have had several appeals where, as but one example, the appellant and I have been told the appeal papers have been circulated and they haven’t even been compiled. Have had multiple other examples when the constant emails and texts related to nothing and brought at least one client with sensory and MH issues very close to the edge.
- the abject failure of the system with multiple post codes it simply refuses to recognise.
- allowing evidence to be uploaded in limited formats when the evidence is not always available in those formats.
- the failure to be end to end digital i.e. your appeal papers are still not electronic.
- the sheer level of duplication. I don’t need an email telling me the appeal papers are on their way to add to my Inbox. I just need the appeal papers. After Covid and in the midst of the so-called CoL crisis I doubt many of us are not experiencing information overload and this is a largely inadequate and unhelpful addition to that.
Those are just the ones off the top of my head 😊
There are doubtless many reps. for whom this works brilliantly but part of being a rep. is to view it from the appellants perspective not just our own and for many people with mental health issues; learning disabilities or sensory issues, which is a fairly high number of appellants, it’s an additional stress which often doesn’t make a lot of sense to them. What works for one is far from working for all. Thus my comment about it not being fit for purpose.
My initial post was perhaps slightly misleading - it isn’t that I have no experience of the system at all, just none where it’s been the case that I’ve submitted the appeal as rep. I’ve experienced both the email and paper overload described by Mike in appeals submitted by a client where they’ve given my details as rep - and I’d echo what he says about this.
The only advantage that I can see is the ‘instant’ lodging of an appeal when you’re up against a deadline.
Of course, the story might be different if reps had access to the same kind of portal that HMCTS have made available to the DWP. I imagine that HMCTS haven’t gone down that route because the portal would need to be available to both reps and unrepresented appellants and the latter isn’t something that it wants.
The result is a significant inequality in arms, of course and I do think we need to start making some noise about that - but I’ve posted about that elsewhere on here….
Just to clarify on my earlier post: I do use the online form, I just don’t register for an account.
With having access to the portal I see no real reason to use paper SSCS1 forms anymore (bar the internet being down etc). First and foremost it just reduces my workflow by a few minutes by not having to print and post something.
I get an automated and instant confirmation it has been submitted - alleviating worries for my clients too.
As regards papers and reminders etc. I just advise my clients to phone me when they receive the bundle (in case my copy doesn’t arrive). Ignore everything else.
I haven’t noticed the random generation issue Mike describes, but then I probably do much fewer appeals.
SSCSA Glasgow are also usually fairly reasonable to deal with via email.
I’m quite IT literate too - and used to dealing with email inboxes that get flooded with more or less useful emails every day - filtering junk is just part of everyday life now 😊
Just an update on an overpayment case where I submitted the one online appeal for the entitlement, overpayment, and civil penalty issues in July this year.
After four directions notices and two lodged appeal confirmations, we received an unexpected text yesterday to advise the third had been added as well - and it’s still only December…
Is there some actual legal reason why it is necessary for there to be multiple appeals registered in relation to different aspects of an overpayment case?
It seems to me that it’s completely fine to just bundle everything into one appeal with one case reference. They are invariably heard by the same tribunal at the same time anyway.
Well there are two decisions to appeal - the entitlement decision and the overpayment recovery decision. I think we’ve probably all encountered cases in the past where the appellant has only come to us at the appeal stage, has only appealed the recovery decision and we’ve then had the business of the tribunal having to treat that appeal as also being against the recovery decision (and I can’t say that I’ve ever encountered an issue with a tribunal being prepared to do that). And I suppose it is important that there are two reference numbers at some stage - if only allocated later by the tribunal - as it’s always possible to lose one appeal and win the other and untangling that could be an issue with only the one reference number.
But so long as what we upload when submitting the appeal makes it clear that both decisions are being appealed, which is easy enough to do, I cannot see there being a problem…...
Well there are two decisions to appeal
Yes I suppose my point is that two decisions does not necessarily require two appeals. Surely I can lodge one appeal which exercises my right of appeal in respect of multiple decisions?
In any case, yes, it is something which I think is more for HMCTS administrative purposes than really practically affecting the resolution of these cases.