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Activity 5 (5D) and ‘toilet needs’

 

Sangeeta1
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Hello

I know that ‘toilet needs’ are:

(a) getting on and off an unadapted toilet;
(b) evacuating the bladder and bowel; and
(c) cleaning oneself afterwards.

but I’m not sure what the (b) ‘evacuating the bladder and bowel’ means.


To qualify under 5D (if the other toilet needs don’t apply) what constitutes assistance with evacuating…?

Also, does it mean both bladder and bowel?

Many thanks
Sangeeta

     
John Birks
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There’s a bit in ‘Born on the 4th July’ as I remember. AKA.

Digital Removal of Faeces

     
Daphne
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Hi Sangeeta

I guess, bearing in mind regulation 4 and adequate standard etc, it means being able to get to the toilet in time so that you can evacuate on the toilet. Or it could include if someone needs help, for example, with catheterisation.

I think toilet needs includes evacuating the bowel and evacuating the bladder. Either or those are toilet needs so if you need help with one then that should be enough I would argue.

but I’m not an expert…

     
Chrissum
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The PIP assessment guide states:
“Descriptor D (4 points): Needs assistance to be able to manage toilet needs

This descriptor refers to claimants who require assistance to get on and off the toilet, evacuate the bladder and bowel to clean themselves afterwards, but not to claimants who require assistance due to incontinence. Claimants requiring ssistance who are also incontinent are covered by descriptors 5E and 5F.”

For assistance it states:
“•assistance – Support that requires the presence and physical intervention of another person to help the claimant complete the activity, including doing some, but not all of the activity in question. To apply, this only needs to be required for part of the activity”

I’m not sure how for evacuation someone else could do “some, but not all of the activity” but would suggest that assistance could include making sure evacuations go where they are intended to, but the assistance in this descriptor is probably intended to refer to the hygiene requirements rather than the actual act.

Again, I’m not proclaiming to be an expert…

     
Sangeeta1
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Thanks all.

I am thinking of a situation when someone has a stoma, and is incontinent (of the bowel), but does not necessarily need help with the actual stoma ‘most’ days, so may not qualify under 5E.

5B seems too low!

     
Jane O-P
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Is there an argument for D regarding reasonable period of time? I think you have to carefully wash and dry the area every time you change the bag due to risk of infection - sounds like it could take over twice as long as someone without a disability?

     
Mike Hughes
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I am intrigued by this “... but I’m not an expert” thing. Wholly accept that we’re not all experts on all things but I’m wondering why specifically toileting is bringing out the comment!

     
annief
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Sangeeta1 - 11 June 2018 03:47 PM

Thanks all.

I am thinking of a situation when someone has a stoma, and is incontinent (of the bowel), but does not necessarily need help with the actual stoma ‘most’ days, so may not qualify under 5E.

5B seems too low!

are you thinking about spillage from the stoma, or leakage from the back passage despite having a stoma?

     
Chrissum
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Mike Hughes - 12 June 2018 02:54 PM

I am intrigued by this “... but I’m not an expert” thing. Wholly accept that we’re not all experts on all things but I’m wondering why specifically toileting is bringing out the comment!

Mike I think it’s a British thing - you know we don’t like talking about our toilet needs so wouldn’t profess to being an expert in this particular area - or it could be that a tongue is firmly planted in a cheek (don’t go there - inserting appropriate emoticon)

     
John Birks
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I’ve had the benefit of both and and a lot of experience - I’m happy to be called an Expert.

     
Mike Hughes
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Chrissum - 12 June 2018 03:45 PM
Mike Hughes - 12 June 2018 02:54 PM

I am intrigued by this “... but I’m not an expert” thing. Wholly accept that we’re not all experts on all things but I’m wondering why specifically toileting is bringing out the comment!

Mike I think it’s a British thing - you know we don’t like talking about our toilet needs so wouldn’t profess to being an expert in this particular area - or it could be that a tongue is firmly planted in a cheek (don’t go there - inserting appropriate emoticon)

That’s what I was thinking. Most of us are experts on things like cooking, dressing (although I can think of some honourable exceptions down the years) and budgeting (hopefully, but again…) so why single out toileting for such false modesty? People are weird :)

     
Chrissum
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Back on topic…
I think I’m right in thinking that if someone has a stoma fitted the they are deemed incontinent for the purposes of this descriptor, so any assistance with this, including the emptying and cleaning of the “wound” would count as assistance for 5e so you are then left to argue the majority of days issue…
So I would start with 5e then work your way down.

      [ Edited: 12 Jun 2018 at 04:11 pm by Chrissum ]
stevenmcavoy
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Mike Hughes - 12 June 2018 03:55 PM
Chrissum - 12 June 2018 03:45 PM
Mike Hughes - 12 June 2018 02:54 PM

I am intrigued by this “... but I’m not an expert” thing. Wholly accept that we’re not all experts on all things but I’m wondering why specifically toileting is bringing out the comment!

Mike I think it’s a British thing - you know we don’t like talking about our toilet needs so wouldn’t profess to being an expert in this particular area - or it could be that a tongue is firmly planted in a cheek (don’t go there - inserting appropriate emoticon)

That’s what I was thinking. Most of us are experts on things like cooking, dressing (although I can think of some honourable exceptions down the years) and budgeting (hopefully, but again…) so why single out toileting for such false modesty? People are weird :)

had an esa appeal when it was not long in place and had the pleasure of going into the detail of a client potentially meeting the criteria for points under this and at what level. I think it was the definition of evacuate we were debating.

I don’t think it was the most pleasant few minutes of the client’s life.

     
Advice4life
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Had a client recently who went into great detail of how on a daily basis, she inflates a rubber balloon type device, lubricates the port of arrival and then on docking, deals with an effluent issue. I of course, relayed information verbatim. Awaiting a decision

     
Mike Hughes
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Had a client who “evacuated” in the middle of a tribunal.

I commend this as a winning strategy.

I was particularly impressed that the medical professional held out with an argument of “No, don’t help them, they should be able to do it themselves.”

Took the 2 clerks and a PO to assist before the MP caved.