UK/5338/2014 - Relevance of type of clothing to PIP activity 6 (dressing and undressing); application of regulation 4(2A)

i’d be thinking more of acceptable standard.  the only place a slipper is of an acceptable standard is if you’re in your own home - everywhere else, it is inappropriate dress, so not of an acceptable standard.  and that’s an objective test, surely, which doesn’t offend in the ways set out in the case cited.

Surely slippers aren’t “shoes”, or in any case aren’t “shoes and socks”? Although I can see there perhaps being an issue if the limitation is only with wearing shoes around, rather than just with getting them on.

Mr Finch - 21 February 2018 09:15 AM

Surely slippers aren’t “shoes”, or in any case aren’t “shoes and socks”? Although I can see there perhaps being an issue if the limitation is only with wearing shoes around, rather than just with getting them on.

i’d be thinking more of acceptable standard.  the only place a slipper is of an acceptable standard is if you’re in your own home - everywhere else, it is inappropriate dress, so not of an acceptable standard.  and that’s an objective test, surely, which doesn’t offend in the ways set out in the case cited.

Thanks both! He literally can’t get conventional shoes on his feet because of the extent of the deformity in both his feet. Which in his case is high insteps with clawed toes which do not touch the floor when standing.

Claire are you thinking along the lines of 6F?

Your client can’t dress himself to an appropriate standard unaided. Slippers are not aids because wearing the slippers does not assist him in dressing to an appropriate standard - wearing the slippers is simply a reflection of your client’s inability to dress appropriately.

However, if your client were wearing orthotic inserts and adapted footwear, he would be able to dress to an appropriate standard (whether he has yet been able to obtain them or not). They are aids - so 6b applies.

Elliot Kent - 21 February 2018 11:38 AM

They are aids - so 6b applies.

Being an orthotic wearer myself I considered this earlier and wondered whether they were an aid to walking rather than an aid to dressing.

Possibly both? An aid to walking when walking - but surely also an aid to dressing to a reasonable standard if one cannot get anything else on one’s feet (other than slippers)?

I would think that a regular user who can put on regular shoes but has difficulty walking in them, they might be a walking aid - but if the claimant cannot dress (which is defined to include putting on and taking off shoes) without them, then I think they would be aids for dressing too.

Dan Manville - 21 February 2018 12:38 PM

Elliot Kent - 21 February 2018 11:38 AM

They are aids - so 6b applies.

Being an orthotic wearer myself I considered this earlier and wondered whether they were an aid to walking rather than an aid to dressing.

This has been the dilemma all long. Which is why it has been so helpful to read the various posts.

We quickly came to the conclusion that slippers were not dressing to an ‘acceptable/appropriate standard’ for obvious reasons already set out by everyone.

We agreed/settled on running an argument on 6B from the beginning with this case, but really interested on further thoughts on this and 6F too.

Elliott i take your points and i’m really grateful for your thoughts, but i want to keep an vacuous mind and play devils advocate on this, even if it may be construed as being gormless on my part because this descriptor is pivotal to his case for the Daily Living Component, but hopefully not seen as wasting peoples time.

past caring - 21 February 2018 01:05 PM

Possibly both? An aid to walking when walking - but surely also an aid to dressing to a reasonable standard if one cannot get anything else on one’s feet (other than slippers)?

We are arguing an aid to walking too. 

But its this activity we are really interested, in peoples thoughts

Another orthotic wearer here, although in my case the basic ones had such a profound effect on my spinal pain after a few days that we never moved to the more precisely measured and hideously expensive alternatives. In terms of the impact then for me they’re an aid for walking but the lessening of the spinal pain has also aided undressing (but only from when fully clothed e.g. when going swimming etc.).

So, yes, I can see the argument for both.

However, I do feel the need to challenge the outrageous slur, started by Clare, that “...  the only place a slipper is of an acceptable standard is if you’re in your own home”. Clearly you people haven’t heard of Mahabis 😊

My bins would simply never get brought out to the front of the house for emptying were it not for these 😊

https://mahabis.com/

With dodgy beard and rolled up trouser legs - hipster or mason Mike?

past caring - 21 February 2018 04:09 PM

With dodgy beard and rolled up trouser legs - hipster or mason Mike?

Couldn’t grow a beard to save my life :)

However, the orthotics have reduced my pain levels to an occasional 0 out of 10 and thus the full mobility would allow for the rolling up of a trouser leg.

However… :)

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 21 February 2018 01:35 PM

We agreed/settled on running an argument on 6B from the beginning with this case, but really interested on further thoughts on this and 6F too.

I think this (6F) is going to be very much fact dependant. My reading of what you said earlier;

Client has a ‘chronic painful deformity of his feet requiring orthotic inserts and adapted footwear (a long process to obtain requiring umpteen appointments taking over a year apparently). Can only wear slippers.

is that the aid/adaptation has not yet materialised? If once it does, he is able to get the adapted footwear on and off and to wear it, then it’s 6B - and always was 6B. On the other hand, it could turn out that the adapted footwear is unable to do the job either - it’s too uncomfortable to wear/he cannot get it on and off/whatever. But he isn’t going to know that until he receives the footwear. At which point, go for a supersession for 6F?

past caring - 21 February 2018 04:32 PM

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 21 February 2018 01:35 PM

We agreed/settled on running an argument on 6B from the beginning with this case, but really interested on further thoughts on this and 6F too.

I think this (6F) is going to be very much fact dependant. My reading of what you said earlier;

Client has a ‘chronic painful deformity of his feet requiring orthotic inserts and adapted footwear (a long process to obtain requiring umpteen appointments taking over a year apparently). Can only wear slippers.

is that the aid/adaptation has not yet materialised? If once it does, he is able to get the adapted footwear on and off and to wear it, then it’s 6B - and always was 6B. On the other hand, it could turn out that the adapted footwear is unable to do the job either - it’s too uncomfortable to wear/he cannot get it on and off/whatever. But he isn’t going to know that until he receives the footwear. At which point, go for a supersession for 6F?

Thanks for the above your reading was correct. It appears that a pair of adapted shoes were made for him back in Autumn 2015, but his condition had worsened and , by spring in 2016 he had to return them for adjustment, situation ongoing, in part logistics (on his part don’t ask why) and potential surgery which he was keen to avoid because it is has risks and may not resolve the problem, and in fact could worsen it

Mike Hughes - 21 February 2018 03:50 PM

Another orthotic wearer here, although in my case the basic ones had such a profound effect on my spinal pain after a few days that we never moved to the more precisely measured and hideously expensive alternatives. In terms of the impact then for me they’re an aid for walking but the lessening of the spinal pain has also aided undressing (but only from when fully clothed e.g. when going swimming etc.).

So, yes, I can see the argument for both.

However, I do feel the need to challenge the outrageous slur, started by Clare, that “...  the only place a slipper is of an acceptable standard is if you’re in your own home”. Clearly you people haven’t heard of Mahabis :)

My bins would simply never get brought out to the front of the house for emptying were it not for these :)

https://mahabis.com/

Thanks for your the thoughts Mike!

I actually have to agree with Claire!

Despite too being in possession of a pair of Mahabis, that were bought for me! 

I actually avoided slippers until recent years, swearing i would never wear them, but middle age got the better of me!