Deductions from UC - lack of information and UC can’t talk to HMRC???

I have expressed concern about TC deductions from UC here -
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/12290/

I am further concerned that there is a problem with co-ordination between UC/Debt Management/HMRC, and that people have deductions taken from UC without being given adequate information – and, I suspect, rights of MR/appeal.

In the case below, the claimant cannot act for themselves, and an appointee is doing the work. What would happen were there no available appointee defies the imagination.

Claimant was moved to UC simply by moving in to a UC full service area. Benefits changed, a TC overpayment was generated – no explanation given as to how – and deductions for this (and other items?) from UC began.
Appointee paid the TC debt in full. Deductions continued. There now appears to be a second (TC?) sum owing.

UC, HMRC and Debt Management are all involved.

UC Service Centre has no access to Debt Management to view payments made to them – appointee needs to call Debt Management to check or dispute payments made.

UC also advised appointee to call HMRC as Debt Management don’t deal with the TC overpayment.
UC say – ‘the amount owed back to tax credits is automatically received electronically through the universal credit system, so [UC] can’t see the full amount that is owed to them, the system will then automatically make a payment’

UC tried to call HMRC to clarify and returned to the appointee with this message -
‘Phoned tax credits…they are not allowed to discuss any of your details with me. If you still have any concerns, you will have to ring them and discuss how much is owed etc with them.’

Appointee to UC:

‘It would be great if you can tell me what any deductions are for! I only get to see the statement in “payments” which says how much has been deducted under the heading debt. It makes it very hard to plan and also very hard to know if there are errors.’

‘If you get asked for any improvements to the system that you would make perhaps you could mention that that simple step of saying x amount deducted by x because you owe them a total amount of x because   (reason), would help people make monthly plans.’

‘I feel as if I am going round in circles. Also I do not know of any other organisation/ bank/ situation/ where if you pay someone any money they do not provide you with a receipt or confirmation in some form or another’

Have there been no letters from HMRC at all with regards to the debts that were transferred?

A TC1131 should be issued showing the debts and only those that are ‘safe’ should be transferred which means you can end up with more than 1 TC1131.

This is what the letter looks like https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/517232/annex-a-debt-technical-guide.pdf

Did the appointee pay the TC debt direct to HMRC? Was that before or after the deductions had started?

We have found it quite difficult to find out exactly how this process works and this just highlights the problems and how you get it resolved.

Victoria