× Search rightsnet
Search options

Where

Benefit

Jurisdiction

Jurisdiction

From

to

Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Decision making and appeals  →  Thread

HMCTS - problems with (new) outgoing post provider = hearings adjourned

 1 2 > 

Peter Turville
forum member

Welfare rights worker - Oxford Community Work Agency

Send message

Total Posts: 1659

Joined: 18 June 2010

Is this a national problem?

Apparently HMCTS have changed their outgoing post provider. This is causing significant delay in notification of hearings.

We received today notification of hearings (notices dated 3/11 & 6/11) for hearings today and Thursday. Clients have also received their notification today. Todays hearing therefore had to be adjourned. Clearly 2 days not acceptable for Thursdays cases!

It now has to be said that HMCTS are now worse than DWP or HMRC!

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
forum member

Citizens Advice Bridport & District

Send message

Total Posts: 1013

Joined: 9 January 2017

Really don’t want to tempt fate, but so far not been an issue for us, regarding hearing dates.

Brian JB
forum member

Advisor - Wirral Welfare Rights Unit, Birkenhead

Send message

Total Posts: 472

Joined: 18 June 2010

Yes, has been a problem here as well. Not as close as 2 or 3 days (although I haven’t received notification for a hearing next Tuesday yet - client received letter dated 9th November on 20th November

Elliot Kent
forum member

Shelter

Send message

Total Posts: 3134

Joined: 14 July 2014

I’ve received three letters today dated 8th November. Fortunately, they’re for lapsed appeals and not hearing dates.

Benny Fitzpatrick
forum member

Welfare Rights Officer, Southway Housing Trust, Manchester

Send message

Total Posts: 628

Joined: 2 June 2015

25 days to deliver a letter? Are they using snails?

It would be quicker, (and probably cheaper)for the clerks to hand-deliver mail!

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

Can’t say I’ve noticed this specifically so far. However, I have noticed a significant downturn in competence locally in terms of the compilation and distribution of appeal papers including a general inability to do anything with incoming post except add it to appeal papers. Had complaints, request for directions and all manner of correspondence just added to appeal papers but not actually actioned as per the contents.

past caring
forum member

Welfare Rights Adviser - Southwark Law Centre, Peckham

Send message

Total Posts: 1125

Joined: 25 February 2014

Not had anything as close as two days yet.

But what has become an issue (and unfortunately, this is something which the UT is not immune to) is HMC&TS; post being sent by 2nd class post. This can have a significant effect where directions notices are being sent out with a one month deadline for response - it’s not at all uncommon for 8 - 10 days of your response time to be lost as a result.

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

Colleague has told me this has impacted on him. Also been told it’s been sorted but pinch of salt with that until there’s hard evidence of sufficient notice being given again I guess.

ROBBO
forum member

Welfare rights team - Stockport Advice

Send message

Total Posts: 334

Joined: 16 June 2010

We received one HMCTS letter advising that a FTT paper hearing had been set aside on our application.

Unfortunately the letter took over a month to arrive, by which time a further paper hearing had taken place without our knowledge.

I hope the savings they’re making on the post provider outweigh the additional costs incurred with adjournments and set asides.

stevenmcavoy
forum member

Welfare rights officer - Enable Scotland

Send message

Total Posts: 871

Joined: 22 August 2013

this has been doing my head in recently.  we have ended up finding out about appeals with less than 14 days notice (we have a team of 2 doing appeals and mainly do Glasgow but also Hamilton and occasionally Edinburgh and fife) so this is not ideal.

thankfully we have covered them so far to get It done for clients but not very sustainable.

Dan_Manville
forum member

Mental health & welfare rights service - Wolverhampton City Council

Send message

Total Posts: 2262

Joined: 15 October 2012

Mike Hughes - 29 November 2017 09:50 AM

Can’t say I’ve noticed this specifically so far. However, I have noticed a significant downturn in competence locally in terms of the compilation and distribution of appeal papers including a general inability to do anything with incoming post except add it to appeal papers. Had complaints, request for directions and all manner of correspondence just added to appeal papers but not actually actioned as per the contents.

Yep; email with “Direction request” in the subject bar was added to the bundle. The excuse from the ASC was “you didn’t tell us it needed to be considered by a Judge”...

Memories of cover letters with “Direction Request” in 72 point print come flooding back.

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

Given that I’ve been having great fun with requests for large print appeal papers 72 point appeals to my sense of humour.

I have been toying with “This is not for you. Give it to a judge!” in very large print.

I reckon there’s a 50/50 chance such a document would appear in a bundle and the matter at hand would not make it to a judge until the day of the hearing.

A Stavert
forum member

Welfare benefits officer - Scottish Borders Council, Scotland

Send message

Total Posts: 44

Joined: 16 June 2010

I had two tribunals listed for this morning, 30/11/17.  In each case I had received notification dated 27th October on 31st October, but neither client received their copy of the letter (also dated 27th October)  until Monday 27th November.
One case had to be postponed as the client was unable to arrange transport at short notice.

past caring
forum member

Welfare Rights Adviser - Southwark Law Centre, Peckham

Send message

Total Posts: 1125

Joined: 25 February 2014

Dan Manville - 30 November 2017 10:57 AM
Mike Hughes - 29 November 2017 09:50 AM

Can’t say I’ve noticed this specifically so far. However, I have noticed a significant downturn in competence locally in terms of the compilation and distribution of appeal papers including a general inability to do anything with incoming post except add it to appeal papers. Had complaints, request for directions and all manner of correspondence just added to appeal papers but not actually actioned as per the contents.

Yep; email with “Direction request” in the subject bar was added to the bundle. The excuse from the ASC was “you didn’t tell us it needed to be considered by a Judge”...

Memories of cover letters with “Direction Request” in 72 point print come flooding back.

A couple of months back got instructed in a tax credits appeal which HMRC argued had lapsed due to its post-appeal section 18 decision and following LS and RS v Commissioners for Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs (TC): [2017] UKUT 257 (AAC) - this set out in their response to the appeal. The Revenue was, unfortunately, correct (I have subsequently managed to resolve the substantive issue with a fresh but late MR and threat of JR if time wasn’t extended to admit it).

1. 22/9/2017 letter and email to HMC&TS; notifying we are reps and setting out why we agreed with the Revenue that the appeal had lapsed. Big bold letters ‘Directions request - for the attention of a judge’. No response.

2. 29/9/2017 client receives listing notice for 16/10/2017 - we get nothing.

3. I give HMC&TS; the benefit of the doubt (correspondence may have crossed in the post) but by 6/10/2017 when I’ve still heard nothing I re-send the 22/9/2017 asking for an urgent direction. No response.

4. I’m employed part-time Wednesday to Friday. The appeal is listed for a Monday - if there was anything of substance to the appeal I’d have either asked for a re-listing at the outset or tried to reschedule my work to allow me to rep in person. By Friday 13/10/2017 I’ve still heard nothing. It’s almost certain that nothing I’ve sent earlier is going to be in the papers that are before the judge on Monday. So I have to do an actual submission, setting out the earlier correspondence and email this directly to the venue - fortunately, it’s a venue that has this facility.

5. My sub also says that I work part-time, that therefore I cannot attend the hearing, but that although the appellant has been fully advised regarding the inevitability of the appeal being struck out, she will attend.

The result? A strike out decision - but with a snide dig at me for not attending.

Peter Turville
forum member

Welfare rights worker - Oxford Community Work Agency

Send message

Total Posts: 1659

Joined: 18 June 2010

Attended hearings today - including some of those mentioned in my original post. Return to office. Duplicate notification of todays hearing (with same issue date) had arrived in todays post!

Maybe ASC Birmingham is particularly bad at the moment - but we experience all of the other issues mentioned - failing to place clearly marked applications for Directions before a judge (just attaching to bundle, failure to issue Directions then made to all parties or ignored completely), failure to copy submissions and other evidence sent weeks / months in adviance to the bundle (or only after the tribunal has been heard!). Anything post hearing / adjournment seems beyond their capability to get right.

Lost count of the number of complaints we have made about basic administartive errors in the past 12 months.

It is becoming increasingly difficult to do our job effectively (sigh)!

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

This is theoretically one for liaison/TUGs but in reality we haven’t had anything actually change as a consequence of a TUG in years. I honestly don’t know why they bother other than to tick a box. Last time out I wasn’t even convinced one judge understood a number of questions.

I now have a nice collection of letters from both DWP and HMCTS telling me how they can’t possibly do large print papers because they have neither the funding nor the facilities, followed rapidly by large print subs from DWP and more recently by a fully transcribed set of actual large print appeal papers on yellow legal paper and bound to boot.

I’ve one case on which I have requested directions 3 times now. Each time they’ve been added to the bundle. So, I lodged a complaint. Sure enough it’s not been actioned but, yes, it’s been added to the bundle. Take your pick. Literacy issue? Person spec. issue?

The left hand doesn’t currently understand the concept of a hand let alone that there’s a right one!