Questions re how UC& Contributory Benefits work in practice

We are in an area where UC is being rolled out in Feb. and just want to clarify how the system works in practice.

a)  How does Joe Bloggs who loses his job know whether he should claim UC or CJSA? (Similarly for cases where it would be CESA).  What happens if he applies for the worng one?  Is it possible for him to apply for the wrong benefit? 

b)  What if Joe is entitled to a contributory benefit, but also needs to claim help with housing costs?  Does he then claim e.g. UC only, JSA & UC or JSA & HB?

Thanks in anticipation.

I think we’ve had similar thoughts!

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7567/#33256

Seems like it.  Do you have an answer to my second question?  Surely someone must know, but I’ve spent ages trying to get the information from the DWP various sections, obviously without success. 

RAREES - 12 January 2015 01:03 PM

We are in an area where UC is being rolled out in Feb. and just want to clarify how the system works in practice.
...

b)  What if Joe is entitled to a contributory benefit, but also needs to claim help with housing costs?  Does he then claim e.g. UC only, JSA & UC or JSA & HB?

For a new JSA claim I’d expect it to be new-style JSA(C) plus UC ( unless Joe’s in specified accomodation).  How/whether this works in practice I’m not sure.

Thank you.

For a new JSA claim I’d expect it to be new-style JSA(C) plus UC ( unless Joe’s in specified accomodation).  How/whether this works in practice I’m not sure.

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Thanks, Joe, but I don’t know what you mean by “new-style JSA(C)”.  Could you explain it, please?

I don’t think he will be able to claim UC if he is entitled to cont JSA as the gateway conditions preclude anyone on that benefit - see Schedule 5 in SI 1452/2014 -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1452/made

New-style JSA refers to the JSA based on NI conts only which is what exists in UC areas I believe

I admit to a degree of confusion: new-style JSA has been brought in to cover contribution-based claims in UC areas, it’s under the JSA Regulations 2013 and consists of CJSA only. Am I OK so far?

Soooo - I’d thought that if you qualify for UC you could combine it with ‘new’ CJSA - but the item that Daphne has pointed out says the claimant ‘must not be entitled to’ certain benefits - and then CJSA is one of those listed. And the wording is not ‘already receiving’ but ‘entitled to’.

So our theoretical person here is kicking off a brand new claim and has no existing benefits as such - but let’s say there is ‘entitlement’ to CJSA via NICs.

What on earth happens? ‘New’ CJSA plus ‘old’ top-up benefits?

I’m going home…..

Yes I believe so Andrew. Eventually of course people will get new-style JSA topped up by UC but, under the gateway conditions, if you have entitlement to cJSA then you get that and, if required, it is topped up by ibJSA.

In effect UC is being rolled out for people who are eligible for means-tested benefits only - and of course are fit, healthy, generally single, non homeowning, British jobseekers etc etc.

That’s my understanding anyway…

It’s murky isn’t it? Article 4(4) of SI 2014/1661 ..

( http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1661/made )

.. amended the “existing benefits” provision of Schedule 5 so that only receipt of “old style” JSA/ESA prevents you from getting through gateway (*)

So, if you lose your job in a UC area, you have the contributions and you meet the other gateway conditions, then I think you could claim JSA (which would be “new style”) and then claim UC on top.

(*  had a quick look and this change doesn’t seem to have been reflected in the online application process for UC - it appears to still reject all JSA claimants. I can’t tell if the UC online process links on to potential new JSA claims at all.)

What I’ve not been able to spot, so far, is anything which allows a JSA claim to be treated as a UC claim as well (or vice versa) - which you’d think would be sensible - maybe it’s there somewhere?)

Ah thank you Jon - good spot - it’s lucky this UC is so simple isn’t it…

I see what you mean about lack of anything re treating a claim for one as a claim for the other - had a quick scan through the UC(C&P) regs and not spotted anything yet - will keep looking…

OK, here’s an attempt at a summary - any corrections or revisions please?

To meet Gateway conditions -

•claimant must be single or a member of a couple
•must live in a relevant district for UC
•must be at least 18 and under 60 years and 6 months
•must be a British Citizen who has lived in the UK for 2 years before the claim and has not left the UK for any reason for a continuous period of four weeks or more during the period in that time

Capability for work, pregnancy, capacity to act
•must declare that they consider themselves fit for work
•claimant must not be pregnant or within 15 weeks of giving birth (or confinement after 24 weeks of pregnancy resulting in the birth of a child whether alive or dead)
•must not have a doctor’s statement unless it has since been established that they have no limited capability for work
•must not be waiting for a doctor’s statement
•must not have a deputy appointed by the Court of Protection [or a receiver appointed before 1.10.07 who is treated as such] or any other person acting on behalf of them in relation to the UC claim
•must not have had a determination that they have LCW, unless it has subsequently been determined that they do not have LCW

Receipt of benefits, existing appeals
•must not be entitled to or awaiting a decision on:
‘old style’ JSA(C)
‘old style’ ESA(C)
IS
IB
DLA
PIP
Or awaiting the outcome of an application for revision of a decision that they are not entitled to old style CJSA, old style CESA, IS, Tax Credits or HB

•there must not be any on-going appeal about old style CJSA, old style CESA or IS and there must be no possibility of any further appeal by any party (e.g. SoS is not going to UT having lost at FTT, or claimant is out of time to go to UT)

  Earnings and capital

•a single claimant must declare that his or her earned income is not expected to exceed £330 during the period of one month starting with the date on which the claim for UC is made
• for a couple, each member of the couple’s income must not exceed £330 and their joint income not exceed £525 during the period of one month (etc)
•the claimant’s or couple’s capital does not exceed £6000
•must declare that they do not expect to have any self-employed earnings for 1 month from the date of claim
•the claimant must not be a company director or a member of a limited liability partnership.

Housing and homelessness
the claimant must not:
•be homeless or in temporary accommodation because they are homeless or in a bail/probation hostel
•must live at their usual address
•not live in accommodation where care, supervision, counselling, advice or other support services are provided by the landlord directly or indirectly to help them live there
•live in the same house as a person who is a member of the regular or reserve forces (and absent in connection with that role)
•own or partly own the place where they live

Family and caring Responsibilities
Claimant must not:
•have a child living with them, some or all of the time
•Be responsible for a child aged under 16
•be responsible for a young person age 16-20 living with them some or all of the time -
•be an adopter with whom a child is expected to be placed within 2 months of the UC claim
•be a foster parent (even if they don’t have a child placed with them)
•be liable to pay Child Support Maintenance
•have any responsibility to provide care unless this is part of voluntary work

Education and training
•must not be in education or training of any kind including adult education
• must declare they do not expect to be so for one month starting from date of claim

NINO and banking arrangements
•must have a NINO
•must have an account with a bank, building society, Post Office or current account with a Credit Union

I’m on a train ATM so without regs but ... what happens in Sutton??

Very good Andrew! Until they change it again…

Only thing missing I spotted is in the bit about ‘receipt of benefits/existing appeals’ - it is all the ones you mention but also ‘existing benefits’ - the ones that UC replaces so you can’t get if you’re pending a revison/appeal on any of those (para 3(3) of schedule 5 1452/2014)

The most obvious example being you can’t go on UC if you are claiming as a jobseeker pending a revision on a WCA assessment for ESA.

Gareth - as I understand it in Sutton there are no restrictions other than claim has to be after 24/11/14 and before 20/12/14 - regs here -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/3094/made

the last I heard they only had about 17 claims! I will hopefully find out more at operational stakeholders meeting next tuesday…

I had read 2014 No 1661 as amending 1452/2014 by taking out references to ‘existing benefits‘ by taking those words out of para 3(1) and making the list in 3(1) (a) to(c) consist of old CJSA, old CESA and IS only and then referring in 3(3) to ‘any benefit mentioned in para 1(a) to (c)’ plus Tax Credits and HB.

Any thoughts? Mine are: ‘Arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrg.’

A further (evil) thought - claimant signs up for UC and declares that they are not expecting to earn more than £330 in the month following the date of claim.

Claimant is sanctioned for refusing, by dint of this declaration, to seek work of at least 35 hours a week.

Impossible?

Well, I could try my hardest to earn a million quid next month but I still wouldn’t expect to earn it so I think that they should be safe. I think that in order to expect to earn a particular amount there would have to be a degree of certainty, such as a job offer already in place.

If I’m wrong you may just have identified the easiest way to avoid going on to UC…

Andrew - you’re right that 1661/2014 does amend it - but doesn’t ‘old-style ESA’ include income-related as well as contributory - I’m pretty sure you can’t go on UC if you have a revision/appeal going for any ESA be it income-related or contributory. If income-related is included then 1661/2014 includes all the ‘existing benefits’ - what do you think?

Ah yes you’re right- I was thinking only of Contribution-Based benefits but you’re right, ‘old-style’ ESA or JSA includes means-tested too.

Thanks!!!

Simple ole system ain’t it?????

Thank you everyone for your contributions.  I think the fact you are all having to put your thinking caps on and do research means that poor old Joe Bloggs from my enquiry here doesn’t stand a chance of knowing and there is a possibility that he may lose out on income for his rent accordingly. 

I don’t have access to all the acts amended by the statutory instruments you mention, so can I check I have this straight?  If Joe meets the conditions for the new style JSA contribution based, which I take it follows the same conditions as the old, he is exempted from claiming UC anyway and must therefore claim JSA & HB exactly as he currently would.  And when his former work mate Fred in the same area tells him he needs to claim UC now, not JSA (not knowing what we do about NIC contributions), Joe applies for UC.  How does it happen in practice that he is identified as needing to claim JSA(C) and HB instead, (I realise that UC new claimants can’t claim housing costs at the moment) and, more importantly, will he lose out on benefit by any delay in this identification?

I’m just trying to think through the advice we give to callers to our helpline as we cover all of Wales and having to think of both systems. 

Thanks to you all

As far as I can now interpret this bezoomniness, Joe, (assuming he is new to the benefits system or has no ‘old-style’ claims or relevant revisions or appeals hanging around) can claim new-style JSA and also UC (which will include housing costs)

As for how his entitlement to CJSA is established in the UC system (unless he happens to know it for himself) there seems to be no clear answer at present.

I agree with Andrew - in the rollout areas the best advice is to say claim both JSA and UC and let the DWP sort it out - unless you know there is no chance of contributory in which case could just do a UC claim.

I will email DWP operational stakeholders and raise it at the meeting next week to clarify what their position is…

Thank you, both of you.  Can you let me know the outcome of your email, Daphne,  please?

Of course - I will post here when I hear anything

Will Joe need to claim both in order to receive his NI credits?

Answering my own question - any week or part week when you receive UC you get credited with class 3 credits only (not class 1 as with jsa/esa)
So you don’t need to claim jsa/esa to get your credits as you will only get class 3 anyway

Daphne - 13 January 2015 03:04 PM

Gareth - as I understand it in Sutton there are no restrictions other than claim has to be after 24/11/14 and before 20/12/14 - regs here -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/3094/made

the last I heard they only had about 17 claims! I will hopefully find out more at operational stakeholders meeting next tuesday…

I wonder what’s happening in Sutton too - there’s still no sign of them restarting after the Christmas break (in terms of the regs, at least).

If you get the chance,  it would be interesting to know if they can provide any more clarity on this…

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewreply/32756/

I’ll add it to my list for tomorrow Jon…

Update from operational stakeholders…

on Sutton - claims were only open for 4 weeks - they are now ‘pausing’ but intend to start claims again soon - the number of claimants they currently have in Sutton is ‘in the 30s’

On contJSA and UC - it was difficult to get clarification on this even though I had sent an email in advance and they had come with a prepared answer. From what I could gather, if a jobseeker tries to claim JSA in a UC area they will get directed to UC - when they visit their jobcentre for their first interview they will have an interview with their ‘Personal and Accounts Support Agent’ who ‘should’ let them know that they can claim cont JSA - but it might be helpful if we could prime UC claimants to ask about cont JSA in case it gets missed!!

We have asked for specific information about what happens if you claim JSA online - what advice does it give you?
What guidance is there to assist claimants? - I highlighted that the guidance here - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/378293/uc-making-your-claim.pdf - dated November 2014 says you can’t claim UC if you get JSA which is not necessarily correct as established above
Given that you don’t get the same NI credits for UC as you do for JSA it could be important that people don’t miss out on a claim
Also what happens if someone doesn’t qualify for UC - eg due to savings - will they get directed to claim cont JSA having been directed away from it initially.

Basically far more questions than answers I’m afraid. It would be good to hear from people about what happens in practice - I can feed any problems back

Jon - on the lobster pot and getting out - we ran out of time for questions and I suspect the people who came wouldn’t have had an answer anyway - I will send in an email query.

Statutory instrument published today allows UC claims in Sutton again from 28 January 2015 -

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/33/made