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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Decision making and appeals  →  Thread

DWP having a go at minorities

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BC Welfare Rights
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The Brunswick Centre, Kirklees & Calderdale

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Attached letter from DWP re. alleged ESA overpayment states in bold type:

“You are now in a minority of people who have received money they are not entitled to.”

Seems a bit unnecessarily rude. What is this about?

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Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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It’s pathetic quite frankly.

Jon (CANY)
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It’s a “nudge”, and it probably works.

The “Behavioural Insight Team” were working with government on this sort of thing. Here’s an item from their site about drafting letters that encourage people to pay their parking tickets:

... Another feature of the new letter was the use of social norms. The letter included the true statement that “The majority of drivers who receive a parking fine in Louisville pay it within 13 days.”..

 

shawn mach
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I see that it also says: ‘Most people have already made arrangements to pay back their overpayment .... ‘

ROBBO
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So you’re not only in a minority.  You’re in a minority of the minority.

So there.

BC Welfare Rights
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Jon (CHDCA) - 09 March 2017 10:44 AM

It’s a “nudge”, and it probably works.

Hmm, not in this case, it has really got my goat. This was sent to a woman with chronic low self-esteem issues who was doing Permitted Work.

I will write back and suggest that the B.I.T. change its name to Behaviour Under Limited Learning Stone Hearted Insight Team as it produces a more accurate acronym.

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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Billy Durrant - 09 March 2017 01:14 PM

Hmm, not in this case, it has really got my goat. This was sent to a woman with chronic low self-esteem issues who was doing Permitted Work.

I will write back and suggest that the B.I.T. change its name to Behaviour Under Limited Learning Stone Hearted Insight Team as it produces a more accurate acronym.

We really do need that “Like” button…

Uphill Struggle
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Paul_Treloar_AgeUK - 09 March 2017 02:26 PM
Billy Durrant - 09 March 2017 01:14 PM

Hmm, not in this case, it has really got my goat. This was sent to a woman with chronic low self-esteem issues who was doing Permitted Work.

I will write back and suggest that the B.I.T. change its name to Behaviour Under Limited Learning Stone Hearted Insight Team as it produces a more accurate acronym.

We really do need that “Like” button…

I’d Like your Like!

Mike Hughes
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May I have a “like” button for the thread title alone? Good effort :)

So, an organisation whose accounts have been qualified for how many decades now is confident telling people that they are in a minority! Good solid start there. In reality they have no clue as to how many people have been overpaid and the phrases they have omitted are of course “may not be entitled” or “appear to not be entitled to” or “may have received”.

The nudge element is fascinating. Putting aside the general controversy about such techniques there’s much evidence that the examples given to show how nudge works are poorly evidenced and generally lacking in rigour. “Take about 30 seconds to rip to pieces” might be another way of putting it. There is some evidence nudges may work if they are accompanied by an incentive (like an administrative penalty for example) but in most of the examples given in connection, for example, to local authorities and Housing Benefit, it falls apart the moment any common sense rigour is applied to it. The claims made are often plainly ridiculous.

I’m not sure anyone can claim it works on any sensible analysis as o/ps are inevitably very specific to their own set of circumstances. So, a rise in the recovery rate at the first attempt based on the fact this letter has been sent out will likely encourage the delusion that this is a great and successful idea but such a rise could be equally attributable to a change in regs; increasing number of POs at appeals; increasing numbers of visiting officers; increasing numbers of fraud officers being used as VOs, a specific structural problem being addressed e.g. o/ps following the death of a claimant and so on.

For me this is the sort of pseudo science encouraged by people who spout things like

- vinyl is clearly superior to CD.
- statistics can be used to say anything.

Go down that road and, funnily enough, you end up with Donald Trump :(

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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But vinyl is clearly superior to CD’s Mike.

paulmoorhouse
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I’m sure Mike has statistics to prove otherwise….

Mike Hughes
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But of course. Unfortunately this place doesn’t have an Off Topic forum else I’d go for it 😊

Mr Finch
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Mike Hughes - 10 March 2017 02:31 PM

So, a rise in the recovery rate at the first attempt based on the fact this letter has been sent out will likely encourage the delusion that this is a great and successful idea but such a rise could be equally attributable to a change in regs; increasing number of POs at appeals; increasing numbers of visiting officers; increasing numbers of fraud officers being used as VOs, a specific structural problem being addressed e.g. o/ps following the death of a claimant and so on.

Regression to the mean. Especially if the policy is brought in when performance is at a low point.

Gareth Morgan
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Paul_Treloar_AgeUK - 10 March 2017 03:00 PM

But vinyl is clearly superior to CD’s Mike.

Paul. You might be able to help me with a problem I’ve got.  Whenever I drive over a bump, the needle on my phonograph jumps and I get a scratching noise.  I was using my iPhone to play music but i understand that it’s not as good.  I’m also worried in case the police stop me when I’m winding up the machine as I understand that using a hand held device is now an offence.

Rehousing Advice.
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Jon (CHDCA) - 09 March 2017 10:44 AM

It’s a “nudge”, and it probably works.

I want to live like common people,
I want to do whatever common people do,
I want to sleep with common people,
I want to sleep with common people,
Like you.

past caring
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lt looks like an accident
Caused by the government
Good people with good intent
Paving the highway down
It seeps into the water
Where the bad side is burning
And it’s not where they lead us
It’s in the act of the turning
The way things are geared here
The way it’s all framed
The names are named
And now they’re all naming names
They’re putting on human faces
Say “There is no alternative”
Carved in stone
And I want nothing
lt’s what I’m trained to believe in
But I can still dream of things
That have never been
But someday will be