× Search rightsnet
Search options

Where

Benefit

Jurisdiction

Jurisdiction

From

to

Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Disability benefits  →  Thread

walking through pain is not walking to acceptable standard

BC Welfare Rights
forum member

The Brunswick Centre, Kirklees & Calderdale

Send message

Total Posts: 1366

Joined: 22 July 2013

Decision attached and summary from DRUK site here http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2013/november/latest-posted-decision-summaries

Edit
My feeling is that the phenomenon quoted at para 13from CPIP/2377/2015 is not that rare at all but reasonably commonplace; what is rare is it being recognised.

[ Edited: 29 Jul 2016 at 05:38 pm by BC Welfare Rights ]

File Attachments

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

Totally agree. Most appellants with a mobility issue don’t suddenly develop a first gear way lower than their normal third gear. They’ll do third gear until they have no choice but to change down rapidly as it were. This of course is where the many snapshot reports we see immediately create a problem. “Claimant walked normally” and so on.

Neil
forum member

Debt & Benefits, Aster Communities

Send message

Total Posts: 96

Joined: 7 November 2013

That seems to be my standard mantra at appeals,” the HCP report is little more than a snapshot2, I have done this job for 20yrs and heard countless promises to improve the reports , and only to see them get worse.

J.Mckendrick
forum member

Welfare Benefits Team - Phoenix & Norcas

Send message

Total Posts: 279

Joined: 16 March 2012

Is this case then saying that walking with pain may make an applicant eligible for enhanced mobility for PIP because walking with pain was not enough for high rate mobility DLA as one had to experience severe discomfort which is greater than pain as per Casinelli.

ClairemHodgson
forum member

Solicitor, SC Law, Harrow

Send message

Total Posts: 1221

Joined: 13 April 2016

J.Mckendrick - 05 August 2016 05:37 PM

Is this case then saying that walking with pain may make an applicant eligible for enhanced mobility for PIP because walking with pain was not enough for high rate mobility DLA as one had to experience severe discomfort which is greater than pain as per Casinelli.

which was always difficult because, frankly, what IS the difference between severe discomfort and severe pain?  i never could get it….

J.Mckendrick
forum member

Welfare Benefits Team - Phoenix & Norcas

Send message

Total Posts: 279

Joined: 16 March 2012

The Court of Appeal case stated that you started with pain which was not enough re DLA HRM.The next stage in the pain threshold was severe discomfort which was good enough for DLA HRM and up another level which was severe pain ie greater than severe discomfort and straight forward pain. I guess it was all about what you put in the DLA1 form.

J.Mckendrick
forum member

Welfare Benefits Team - Phoenix & Norcas

Send message

Total Posts: 279

Joined: 16 March 2012

Off course another good point to argue at FTT re enhanced mobility is that descriptors require the client ‘to stand’....

“stand” means stand upright with at least one biological foot on the ground;

eg like a soldier on parade.

Therefore most applicants with spinal injuries or leg problems cannot be expected (to an acceptable standard) to stand upright and therefore would satisfy the descriptor!

ClairemHodgson
forum member

Solicitor, SC Law, Harrow

Send message

Total Posts: 1221

Joined: 13 April 2016

J.Mckendrick - 05 August 2016 09:35 PM

The Court of Appeal case stated that you started with pain which was not enough re DLA HRM.The next stage in the pain threshold was severe discomfort which was good enough for DLA HRM and up another level which was severe pain ie greater than severe discomfort and straight forward pain. I guess it was all about what you put in the DLA1 form.

yes i know.  but i still couldn’t get it ...... where’s the line between each of those things?  since a lot of the time one persons pain is another person’s severe discomfort, and so on…..ditto severe pain….....

Colin Hannon
forum member

Sustain - Helena Partnerships

Send message

Total Posts: 22

Joined: 29 July 2015

I think virtually every HCP assessing either PIP or ESA mobility descriptors never and I quote never report a claimant walking in significant pain or discomfort ? I could go through 50 assessment reports and rarely is this reported as an observation ? . For example The HCP will always report the claimant walked for 30 metres inside the centre and therefore based on the evidence will be able to walk up to 200 metres ? Utter rubbish on several occasions I have witnessed both PIP/ ESA assessments where a claimant could barely walk due to significant pain but this was never reported and had to be challenged rigoursly to revise the initial decision

It’s absurd to allow this to happen , as the recent commissioners decision states walking in pain should be deemed incapable of completing the function reliably & repeatedly , this is also stated in the ESA/ PIP HCP handbooks so why are we constantly battling to overturn such poor assessments and decisions

C Hannon

Mike Hughes
forum member

Senior welfare rights officer - Salford City Council Welfare Rights Service

Send message

Total Posts: 3138

Joined: 17 June 2010

Perhaps we could have a competition? First person to produce a case where the assessment conceded that the claimant was in severe pain.

Terry Craven
forum member

Benefit Advice & Appeals Service, Liverpool Veterans

Send message

Total Posts: 39

Joined: 19 January 2015

else ct

Billy Durrant - 29 July 2016 05:09 PM

Decision attached and summary from DRUK site http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2013/november/latest-posted-decision-summaries

Edit
My feeling is that the phenomenon quoted at para 13from CPIP/2377/2015 is not that rare at all but reasonably commonplace; what is rare is it being recognised.

here
I have argued successfully that tis decision binds ESA tribunals because it is specific to, an acceptable standard”
Anybody else cited it?

Elliot Kent
forum member

Shelter

Send message

Total Posts: 3133

Joined: 14 July 2014

Terry Craven - 10 September 2016 06:47 PM

else ct

Billy Durrant - 29 July 2016 05:09 PM

Decision attached and summary from DRUK site http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2013/november/latest-posted-decision-summaries

Edit
My feeling is that the phenomenon quoted at para 13from CPIP/2377/2015 is not that rare at all but reasonably commonplace; what is rare is it being recognised.

here
I have argued successfully that tis decision binds ESA tribunals because it is specific to, an acceptable standard”
Anybody else cited it?

I suspect it has some application but I would probably just cite GL v SSWP [2015] UKUT 503 - where the same Judge makes a very similar point but in an ESA framework (“significant discomfort” rather than “acceptable standard”).

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/welfare-rights/caselaw/item/mobilising-with-significant-discomfort-or-exhaustion-should-be-disregarded