IT and lobster pot - what is really happening?

Two questions that I don’t know the answer to.  Has anyone got any inside knowledge of this from working in the established UC areas?

1.  What does the UC computer system actually do at this stage: gather claimant’s personal info online? Allow changes of circs to be uploaded directly by the claimant?  Does it assess entitlement?  Manage payments? Send out decision notices (and if so in what format?) Hold the adjudication history?  Can it be used to manage work related activity/jobseeking?  Are any links in place with other systems, like LA rent accounts or HMRC “RTI” PAYE system?

2. The lobster pot: no way out of UC if your circs change.  Are there currently any claimants getting additions for children, unconventional housing elements, LCW/LCWRA additions etc?  The published stats don’t show this as far as I can see.  Do these people really stay on UC (and does the system handle their awards)?  Do they quietly slip back onto legacy benefits?  Or is the nature of the current caseload such that they just don’t have these things happen in their life at all?

Just curious to see how ready DWP might be for any kind of serious expansion as promised from next February.

We have a UC claimant in Bristol (moved from Bath) who is now sick and awaiting work capability assessment - so yes they do stay on it - will no doubt be a while before any LCW addition is in payment given the Atos delays.

I can feed your questions in number 1 through to the UC team via operational stakeholders to see if they have any input if you want

That would be great - thanks

I’ve emailed - will let you know when any reply but often takes a while…

On a related point, are any advisers seeing claimants who meet the UC gateway conditions (in a UC area) but who are being directed onto legacy benefits instead of UC?

We’ve got UC roll-out in the north of Manchester now. We haven’t seen much of it - as far as I’m aware we have one tenant who’s started a UC claim - there may be more.

Initially there was a confusion as to whether those claiming ESA would be included in the roll-out. It’s not, it’s only new jobseekers, and single, uncomplicated ones at that.
The IT system allows for an on-line claim (with no save function so the claim will not even be accepted unless the claimant has all the info to hand when making it). There is no IT for any further part of it, as can gather. I understand from a colleague in the DWP that some parts of the assessment do have IT functionality, but certainly not holistically so the claim is constructed manually.
Once on UC, you will remain on it. No info yet as to how they anticipate calculating the elements replacing tax credits and child premiums. There is no facility for on-line change of circs. UC trumps everything, so if a partner and children join the HH of a UC claimant, they will apparently also be moved onto UC. I can’t see this being any more than a manual calculation.

One thing I haven’t been able to get a straight answer from the DWP about is whether those who move onto JSA from ESA will be included in the rollout. They say no, but haven’t clearly answered what will happen if there is a gap in entitlement between benefits, or if someone is disallowed JSA a,d then reclaims with a gap - how long that gap needs to be before the claimant is included in UC, etc. I’m not sure the policy wonks who I’ve attended briefings with are clear on this.

In terms of RTI - the HMRC were bigging this up at the briefing. They stated that this functionality between HMRC systems and DWP does exist and work, although I’d say they were massively overstating the level of compliance of small employers in uploading RTI.  I understand from a colleague in HB that RTI wage information is in the process of becoming shared with LAs for HB claims so it sounds like there is much more functionality in this part of the system.

Will keep you updated.

Thanks for the information Karina, very interesting to hear about.

I must admit, in terms of your statement that UC claims are still be calculated manually because the IT system can’t manage it all, to be completely astounded by this.

We’ve got colleagues in the voluntary sector working on comparative buttons who have managed to design UC calculators - yet the DWP have thrown millions upon millions of pounds at their IT and yet it seems that the simplest calculations for single JSA claimants still can’t be processed. That’s scary to contemplate.

It’s like going back to the old days of supp ben when I worked as a clerical officer…

Paul_Treloar_CPAG - 08 October 2014 02:16 PM

Thanks for the information Karina, very interesting to hear about.

I must admit, in terms of your statement that UC claims are still be calculated manually because the IT system can’t manage it all, to be completely astounded by this.

We’ve got colleagues in the voluntary sector working on comparative buttons who have managed to design UC calculators - yet the DWP have thrown millions upon millions of pounds at their IT and yet it seems that the simplest calculations for single JSA claimants still can’t be processed. That’s scary to contemplate.

It’s like going back to the old days of supp ben when I worked as a clerical officer…

But Paul just remember by how much IDS has ‘simplified’ the calclation under UC compared to the days of A14N’s! Should be a ‘piece of cake’ for DWP to calculate even the most complex case by hand.

“I cannot believe it: that’s the the third one today who qualifies for £72.40 a week!  Is it just a coincidence, or am i doing something wrong?  Best check that calculation again”

You’ve got it spot on I suspect.  I wonder how many DWP clerical calculations have to be scribbled out because they start off weekly?

So Job Centres could train people to do manual calcs of UC - showing UC really does achieve objectives! On a more serious note any updates of inclusion of cases with Housing Costs?

Do you mean with mortgage costs? As far as I am aware there is no plan to include them in the foreseeable future. The proposed rollout next year is single jobseekers who rent or no housing costs.

I was referring to both rent and mortgage payments. You have confirmed my understanding - no known timescale yet.

not sure i was clear? Rent is already included in UC claims in areas where it is live. If you have a mortgage you can’t start a claim - though if you were on UC and, say, became a couple with someone who had a mortgage then those costs would be included

Daphne/Karina

I understand that you stay on UC even if you no longer meet the Gateway conditions or are not in a UC area, if you continue with your claim. But what if you stop your claim? Can you then claim legacy benefits? I ask because the UC(TP) regs, reg 15, exclude entitlement to IS etc if you are ‘entitled to UC’,  but if someone stops their claim, they are no longer entitled.

All I have read in guidance etc suggests that it is a ‘lobster pot’ but I’ve then heard differently in meetings, and I can’t find the legislative source for being stuck in the UC system if you are no longer a Gateway person and you stop your UC claim.

We have a client who is a single parent finding life on UC very hard for various reasons, so this is relevant! If you can point me to the provisions which would stop someone NOT claiming UC, but who had been on UC in the recent past, from claiming legacy benefits, that would be really helpful.

There’s always the bus to Belfast.

Elsewhere (HBINFO) a case has been reported where a UC claimant moved to a non-UC JCP district.  JCP advised the claimant to claim housing benefit (on no discernable basis) as they claimed to have no mechanism for dealing with rental housing costs.  JCP have now apparently closed the UC claim. 

[edit] The claimant is not in specified accommodation.

Will - how are they stopping the claim? I think UC claims may be quite difficult to stop a bit like tax credits. You can only withdraw a claim before it has been determined - reg 31 UC(C&P) regs and the awards are indefinite (reg 36) although they can be revised or superseded if there is a change of circumstances. And you remain on the system for 6 months even with no award in payment - reg 6.

So I think the only way you can stop a claim is by having a change of circumstances like having too much savings or becoming a student who can’t qualify for example or leaving the country. Just earning more doesn’t take you off the system - it just means your award is 0.

I don’t think you can just decide to stop the claim - but I could easily be wrong! Happy to take it up with the UC team via stakeholders if you think it might be any help.

From what I’ve heard, Daphne, the person with a nil entitlement to UC will remain on UC for six months before their claim is closed, but that in this time they’re obliged to ‘maintain contact’ with the DWP for that period for this to happen.

Please let me know what you find out, particularly in relation to any chances of people coming back on to legacy benefits in the roll out.

Time for me t go and gen up on the regs. What’s not been clear is anything to do with the new claims follow up procedures.

Thanks Daphne - I’ve had many clients elect to ‘stop’ claiming tax credits by not renewing (on purpose!) but I know what you mean - especially re still being in the system. Certainly the client has been told she can’t come out of UC. It would be good to know definitively, not just for this client but because DWP seem to say one thing, and HMRC seem to say that there’s a choice - but that can only be the choice if the client can become someone not entitled to UC by ending her claim.

So yes, if you could take it up, that would be really helpful. We’re probably going to get more people in this situation.

I’ll fire off an email now but don’t hold your breath - responses take a while…

I have an idea for a regular Samuel Beckett-meets-Private Eye cartoon, The Lobsters. Time and again they ponder the bleakness of life and wonder how to break out of The Pot. Time and again they remain trapped, and are only removed to be boiled alive and eaten.

PS Daphne, I’ve had another look at the UC (C&P) regs and I agree with you. But be interested to see what the Dept say anyway.

HB anorak and Will - here are answers from DWP to questions raised -

2. Please can you advise whether a claimant can choose to stop claiming UC, and then have a period off benefit, and then claim legacy benefits.  If so how long does the period have to be?

Answer - Essentially, a claimant can’t ‘choose’ to return to legacy benefits simply because they want to, however there may be some situations where a UC claimant will then go on to claim legacy benefits at a later date. This would usually occur where a change of circumstances has taken place and the re-award period (usually 6 months) does not apply. Examples and exceptions to this are:
- Where someone’s UC award is reduced to zero by earned income, and provided that they do not opt out of RTI monitoring, then their UC award may reactivate if their earned income drops within six months. The gateway conditions would not apply. So, for example, if the person become pregnant during that time, then they could still get UC.

-  Where the re-award period does not apply and they have to make a new claim for UC, then the gateway conditions would apply and they might have to claim legacy benefits instead.
So it is possible for someone to choose to come off UC and claim legacy benefits. For example:
- A claims UC
- A becomes pregnant
- A notifies that they wish to withdraw their UC claim
- A then claims benefit (possibly as soon as the UC award has ended) - they cannot claim UC because of the gateway condition for pregnancy
- A therefore claims legacy benefits.

3. What does the UC computer system actually do?

Answer - The current UC system gathers claimant’s personal info, it assesses entitlement, manages payments, sends out decision notifications in a letter format, and holds adjudication history.  It also can be used to manage work related activity/job seeking and links into the RTI PAYE system.  The current system has no online account functionality for claimants to access nor does it allow reporting changes of circumstances [C of C].  We will be testing the UC digital solution in Sutton shortly - We are testing online account functionality across the full policy specification of UC.  Although for some C of C we expect to continue to ask for these to be reported by telephone.

Thanks Daphne. I still don’t understand how their explanation (of the claimant who becomes pregnant) works with reg 6 of the UC (C&P) Regs. Could it be that although a claim is not required for entitlement within 6 months, if the client withdraws her existing claim that withdrawal has effect over what would otherwise be ongoing entitlement without a claim…??

There is case law which says that you should not be forced to continue receiving benefit you’ve indicated you no longer wish to receive. Naturally this isn’t UC case law!! But might it apply - I think it is mostly about JSA (may be more than one case).

Hi guys,

We’re about to get hit with UC in the February roll out, and despite querying this with the DWP, they have drawn a bit of a blank.

Whilst we’ve been assured that the roll out is for single, new claimants of JSA, no one has been able to tell us if this includes ESA claimants undergoing MR. This has large implications for our clients, especially with the lobster pot analogy. 

Is there anyone in an existing UC area who has had any experience of this? I’ve not been able to find any info at present, and the DWP are worryingly silent on this matter….

Any information or pointers would be much appreciated :)

No it doesn’t include ESA claimants who have requested a MR.  One of the knock out questions when you start the online claim is:

“Are you challenging or appealing against a decision to not pay you one of these benefits or tax credits?

Only select ‘Yes’ if you are challenging or appealing a decision on one or more of these:
• Employment and Support Allowance
• Jobseeker’s Allowance
• Income Support
• Incapacity Benefit
• Severe Disablement Allowance
• Working Tax Credit
• Housing Benefit
• Child Tax Credit”

It clarifies challenging as:
“Challenging or appealing against a benefit or tax credit decision can include:
•asking to have the reasons for the decision explained
•asking for the decision to be looked at again
•appealing against the decision to a Tribunal
•thinking of re-appealing after a Tribunal decisio

Though I can foresee problems where someone fails WCA, gets told by DWP to claim JSA and is put on UC and then subsequently, after getting advice, asks for a mandatory recon - they are already on UC and once on you stay on. As mentioned on another thread my only UC client has just had a UC50 (ESA50 equivalent). So claimants will need to be clear about whether they are starting a mandatory recon before they put in their claim…