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Is gaming/streaming and donations on facebook work?
Hi All,
Bit confused on this one and messaging on behalf of a colleague. We spoke to a client who is on ESA and PIP due to mental health including issues about not being able to leave the home.
He has recently moved into a hostel but has been leaving there each day to go to a friends home to game and stream this on line through facebook where he gets donations from people watching him play. Initially we thought he was not getting much money in but he confirms that he has been getting donations of :
November donations (paid in January): $166.95
December donations (paid in February): $922.97
January donations (paid in March): $822.51
I guess the two issues are is this considered ‘work’ and ‘earnings’ for benefit purposes and capability? Also wondering f there is a tax issue here as well as the fact he is claiming disability benefits but then doing tasks that contradict this which may I guess be investigated. i can’t seem to find info about this and the ‘work’ is ad hoc but seems pretty regular now.
Anyone come across this at all? I am thinking it is earnings but….
Any tips appreciated
Thanks
Amanda
Sound like voluntary payments?
This is what I am thinking off:
Any income you receive from voluntary sources - such as from friends and family or from charities - is disregarded completely when calculating benefits. This means the amount of benefit you are entitled to is not affected by this kind of income…..A voluntary payment is a payment that has a benevolent purpose and is given without anything being given in return.
Hi
Thank you, yes we had a look over that and wondered if it could be classed as a voluntary payment. Not clear on the benevolent purpose stuff. Good to get a second opinion though.
Thank you
No worries, and assume the reference to benevolent means that it is out of kindness - which could apply not all that watch him will make a donation, so it could be said to be an act of kindness?
See also: -
28496 A voluntary payment is similar to a charitable payment but it will not usually be made
from a charitable trust. Voluntary payments are usually paid for the benefit of an
individual.
I think you would have a hard time arguing that this isn’t “work” such as to exclude him from ESA. Whilst it’s very much a millennial phenomena, plenty of people make a living out of this sort of streaming and as far as I am aware, the earnings from doing so are taxable. To be bringing in almost $1k per month (after Facebook or Twitch takes the lion’s share), your client must have a fairly significant audience.
I think you would have a hard time arguing that this isn’t “work” such as to exclude him from ESA. Whilst it’s very much a millennial phenomena, plenty of people make a living out of this sort of streaming and as far as I am aware, the earnings from doing so are taxable. To be bringing in almost $1k per month (after Facebook or Twitch takes the lion’s share), your client must have a fairly significant audience.
Possibly therapeutic and not work? I don’t mean permitted but helps with his condition, maybe?
This seems to be comparable to busking, and there is a recent UT decision that looks at busking from the point of view of EU law - can it be relied on as economic activity for a right to reside? Rather surprising conclusion: no it cannot. I know this is not directly relevant to benefits and taxation in domestic law, but it is something you could cite.
A more distant analogy would be with gambling - there is a notorious child support case involving Tony “the Hitman” Hakki, whose considerable online poker winnings were found not to be earnings for child support purposes. I find that slightly less surprising in that with peer-to-peer gambling there is no trade - the losing players from whom Mr Hakki took his winnings did not get anything out of the deal, they weren’t paying him for services. I think there is a long line of taxation case law going back a century in which the courts take a similar view about more traditional forms of gambling. If you run a bookie’s shop, that’s a job and the punters are customers, but if the punters win, that’s not earnings for them.
Do we need to distinguish carefully between the different way that online performers get paid? As I understand it, Youtubers get paid by Youtube according to the volume of traffic on their channel because they are generating ad revenue, and then there is Patreon where people pay a monthly fee to view content. I think it would be difficult to avoid categorising this as earned income. But purely voluntary donations maybe different?
If a Mr Charles Ellinson happens to be passing by, he might be able to flesh this out a bit.
[ Edited: 18 Mar 2021 at 08:01 pm by HB Anorak ]A more distant analogy would be with gambling - there is a notorious child support case involving Tony “the Hitman” Hakki, whose considerable online poker winnings were found not to be earnings for child support purposes. I find that slightly less surprising in that with peer-to-peer gambling there is no trade - the losing players from whom Mr Hakki took his winnings did not get anything out of the deal, they weren’t paying him for services. I think there is a long line of taxation case law going back a century in which the courts take a similar view about more traditional forms of gambling. If you run a bookie’s shop, that’s a job and the punters are customers, but if the punters win, that’s not earnings for them.
I remember digging out that old case from the law library when I was at Uni and still playing a fair amount of poker. It was called Graham v Green and from what I remember the court was very anxious that if it were ruled that gambling earnings were taxable, this would mean that gambling losses could be tax deductible. I am not sure that the idea of a Twitch streamer claiming the costs of a new Xbox on their taxes would provoke the same moral panic…
I think the problem this gent has is that even if he were to establish that he is not self employed, that the money is not earnings and that he is not liable for tax, he is still going to have difficulty with the general reg 40 definition of “work” which doesn’t necessarily require a contractual relationship or expectation of payment. The example given in the DMG is going and running a pub quiz two nights a week without payment.
I think you would have a hard time arguing that this isn’t “work” such as to exclude him from ESA. Whilst it’s very much a millennial phenomena, plenty of people make a living out of this sort of streaming and as far as I am aware, the earnings from doing so are taxable. To be bringing in almost $1k per month (after Facebook or Twitch takes the lion’s share), your client must have a fairly significant audience.
...not to mention the merch and bounty on top.
It’s work, innit?
According to Barclays, 68% of young gamers would prefer that to being a lawyer