PIP Appeal - Request for Audio

I’m not sure what form you are using because there isn’t one.

You are entitled to request the record of proceedings from the FtT which is free - good practice is to request this at the same time as the statement of reasons.

It will usually be the judge’s handwritten note at a face to face hearing as they are not recorded (except in Scotland). It will be an audio CD if there was a telephone hearing.

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/Practice+Directions/Tribunals/RecordofproceedingsinSocialSecurityandChildSupportcasesintheSocialEntitlementChamber.pdf

Elliott,

I think it is a reference to this, what is sent now when you request a ROP - note the reference to cost for this service - i do not think this is the correct form though - it refers mainly to Courts and SOME Tribunals?

Did not need to pursue this as was set aside, so not clear what happens if you did reuest a ROP in the way as suggested by Sutton.

Be interested to know if this is standard with telephone appeals and requests for ROP - the SOR’s that we’ve had are the usual paper ones

That’s bizarre.

In the civil courts, hearings are audio recorded and if you want to appeal, you will often need to supply the appeal court with a transcript (not the recording) of all or part of the hearing which you must do at your own expense. So the court will send the recording to the transcription firm and they will prepare a transcript which is then sent back to the Judge for amendment and approval and you will be invoiced for the whole process, so that is what form EX107 is for.

The form is completely inappropriate for SSCS proceedings where the practice statement applies and the party has an absolute right to the copy of the ROP whatever form it takes. You are not requesting transcription, you are requesting the original.

I’ve never had any problems just saying something along the lines “please provide the statement of reasons for the decision and record of proceedings for the hearing”.

Elliott,

Me neither, and usually get the ROP within a week and then the SOR follows sometime after that

But at least explains the initial post i.e. cost involved

Cheers

At the outset of lockdown I believe tribunals were told not to worry about ROPs as there would be a recording of the hearing. I can recall being told that at my first telephone hearing. Have also heard it repeated from other reps, clerks etc.

In the inimitable style of HMCTS they now make noises about people having made notes all along despite explicitly having been told they didn’t need to. So… you can kind of foresee the mess which is coming. Then there is the sticky problem of their not having figured out how to get their audio recordings onto a CD etc. so you end up with transcription requests. Clearly an error implying payment. That’s not going to happen.

Allied to this is the suspicion that requests for SORs have been stacked whilst they figure out what the heck they’re doing with everything and simultaneously broadcast to the world about their fantastic response to the pandemic.

Mike,

Thanks for that, and sounds about right, HMCTS really do seem to be struggling!

Cheers

roecab - 20 October 2020 03:03 PM

Mike,

Thanks for that, and sounds about right, HMCTS really do seem to be struggling!

Cheers

At this point I’d really like to recount the past 2 hours encounter with HMCTS but I’ve had just about enough today.

It’s a fairly standard introduction from the Judge on a phone hearing - ‘you can request a copy of the recording’ - but I don’t know anyone who’s managed to get one. 

When I requested a recording/transcript for one appeal, I was sent the statement, but despite chasing HMCTS up, no transcript.  Application for a set aside currently being considered.

My last request produced neither the ROP or the transcript, just the SOR.

Hopefully there must be reasonable grounds for a set aside if a recording exists but can’t be produced.

MK v SSWP (ESA) [2012] UKUT 293 (AAC)
https://www.bailii.org./uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2012/293.html

Thank you all for the replies!

I think I’ll fill the form in and leave the cost section blank and see what comes back - will let you know what my reply is.

I’m not holding my breath that I’ll get the request for proceedings

Elliot Kent - 21 October 2020 09:59 AM

MK v SSWP (ESA) [2012] UKUT 293 (AAC)
https://www.bailii.org./uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2012/293.html

Thanks Elliot. Just to throw into the mix, there is also the case that Martin Williams referred to at #4 here which deals with a missing ROP and concludes that this does not automatically result in a set aside https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/12488/#58079

ROBBO - 21 October 2020 09:37 AM

It’s a fairly standard introduction from the Judge on a phone hearing - ‘you can request a copy of the recording’ - but I don’t know anyone who’s managed to get one. 

When I requested a recording/transcript for one appeal, I was sent the statement, but despite chasing HMCTS up, no transcript.  Application for a set aside currently being considered.

In the North West they have definitely not figured out how to get the audio into a format for distribution. That’s a pretty fundamental flaw when you think about it but hey they’re HMCTS so they’re pretty good at fundamental flaws. I do believe it’s only just occurred to them that they have made promises they cannot keep and therefore have no choice but to allow a transcription. In exceptional cases I recall from a recent webinar that there is some provision for people to go in and listen to the audio.

I must say that whilst it’s interesting to read a ROP and it can help identify some errors of law, most times I find that I can do the latter from the SOR without reference to the ROP.

Elliot Kent - 20 October 2020 11:24 AM

That’s bizarre.

In the civil courts, hearings are audio recorded and if you want to appeal, you will often need to supply the appeal court with a transcript (not the recording) of all or part of the hearing which you must do at your own expense. So the court will send the recording to the transcription firm and they will prepare a transcript which is then sent back to the Judge for amendment and approval and you will be invoiced for the whole process, so that is what form EX107 is for.

The form is completely inappropriate for SSCS proceedings where the practice statement applies and the party has an absolute right to the copy of the ROP whatever form it takes. You are not requesting transcription, you are requesting the original.

I’ve never had any problems just saying something along the lines “please provide the statement of reasons for the decision and record of proceedings for the hearing”.

These EX107 forms are still being issued. We’ve recently successfully asked for any fee for a ROP transcript to be waived on these grounds:

-they’re not appropriate for SS benefits cases;
-our client can’t afford to pay any fee;
-we, as charity, are unable to pay a fee;

We asked that a judge arrange for any fee for the ROP to be waived.

Scotland HMCTS routinely records tribunals (even pre-COVID) and will send you a CD recording of the hearing as the ROP. Not sure why England HMCTS can’t do the same in these days of recorded telephone hearings.

You can’t waive a fee which doesn’t exist.

I don’t think you should be indulging this. I would be writing to your Regional Tribunal Judge and/or HMCTS management to draw attention to the failure to comply with the Practice Statement.