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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Universal credit migration  →  Thread

New UC claim - managed migration of LCWRA, SDP & fit notes Practical questions!

JojoMitchell
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Hi all
Am trying to assist a client by telephone but have a few questions which I shamefully do not know the answer too - call it covid brain! Remote working instead of outreach which makes it a little trickier as can’t see the UC questions the client is being asked…

So, client is on ESA (LCWAR) including SDP, gets child benefit for 1 yo son (been living with his mother), HB, CTR & PIP.  His partner and child have moved in and she works part time (15-20 hrs a week) earning £600 a month.  Better off calculation shows UC as being higher than legacy but as no one gets child tax credit, this would prompt a claim to UC anyway.

1) does he have to close his ESA claim before submitting their UC claim?
2) the LCWRA should be transferred to his UC so does he need to provide a fit note? Can’t get past the fit note question on the online UC claim.
3) will he automatically receive the sdp transitional payment?
4) HB receive notification from UC but does the CTR part continue or does a new claim need to be made?
5) will he automatically receive the legacy run on for ESA & HB/CTR?
6) his ongoing deductions for an ESA & HB overpayment - can he make separate arrangements for these or will he have deductions from his UC?

Thank you!

[ Edited: 14 Sep 2020 at 04:16 pm by JojoMitchell ]
Elliot Kent
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There is no obligation to claim UC in these circumstances, they would in principle be entitled to remain on ESA and HB. It may not be sensible to do so, but the point is worth remembering.

The UC claim will destroy the ESA and HB awards. In practical terms this may result in an overlap of ESA and UC which will be dealt with either in the first AP or subsequently as an OP. There will be a transitional payment of HB for 2 weeks but not ESA as that isn’t in place yet. LCWRA will continue so no fit notes. There is no SDP compensation as he no longer qualifies for SDP due to partner (unless partner is subject to an exemption - in which case they can just stay on legacy so the issue doesn’t arise). CTR will continue (but may be re-assessed) as it is independent of both legacy and new systems. The deductions are likely to be taken from UC but the rates may change (likely becoming subject to more aggressive rates of enforcement).

I think that’s everything?

VRW
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1) no he doesnt have to - i would assume if he closes his ESA claim that would then stop the transfer of the LCWRA over to UC (but i maybe wrong)
2) the LCWRA should be transferred over usually the second MAP as they are never quick enough (ive never had an issue with the sick note part so cant help on that side)
3) as far as im aware the transitional protection is only applicable to people that still have the entitlement to the SDP (or subsquently became entitled due to an appeal) - so your client wouldnt be entitled because of the other adult in the property?? but again i maybe wrong
4) council tax is suspended (or at least it is in durham) until the client confirms new income/benefits
5) again my understanding is that if a person is making a claim for UC as a couple the 2 week run on of legacy doesnt apply- HB yes but ESA no (again if im wrong please someone tell me ive been trying to search for my document and having no luck!!)
6) he can make a payment arrangement with ESA and LA to repay this back outside of the UC system

so not 100% sure answer but getting there haha

Charles
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Elliot Kent - 14 September 2020 04:46 PM

There will be a transitional payment of HB for 2 weeks but not ESA as that isn’t in place yet.

Didn’t the run on for ESA come into force in July?

Elliot Kent
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D’oh.

VRW
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but will the 2 week run on apply as partner has wages so surely that would wipe out any IR entitlement if they are classed as a couple from day make claim for UC??

again im not sure

Charles
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ESA for a couple with the support component is £156/week, so shouldn’t be knocked out completely by the partner’s earnings of £600/month. It should leave about £37/week for the run on period (that also should be the entitlement from the start of the benefit week in which they move in together).

This is actually an example of the many cases where if there is also entitlement to cESA they are worse off than if they would not have had such an entitlement.

[ Edited: 15 Sep 2020 at 06:50 pm by Charles ]
wbamic
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As this is a thread about practical suggestions i thought i would get stuck in.  So not so much in this particular case where they appear to be living as a couple prior to claiming UC (even if it is just a few days or weeks), do we think that in order to secure an accurate run on of entitlement to ESA that newly formed couples should be submitting an ESA3 at the same time as closing the ESA claim/claiming UC as a couple? 

So for example,- Couple up on 01/10/2020
                  - Claim UC on 01/10/2020
                  - Phone ESA and close claim on 01/10/2020
                  -Complete ESA 3 on same day to ensure that the ESA run on is paid at the couples rate? 

Assume UC will not be communicating with ESA to let them know you are now a couple and please can you pay the run on at £116? (or the appropriate amount)
                   

 

 

JojoMitchell
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ESA when I called them said that their overpayment recovery would come from UC and it was not possible to make an arrangement with Debt Management.  Haven’t spoken with DM to check this yet…

In relation to ESA run on:

The run-on of IS, JSA(IB) or ESA(IR) in paragraphs 4 and 7 does not apply to a claim for UC which is treated as made by joint claimants, one of whom was previously entitled to UC where that award ended on formation of the couple, and the other of whom was not entitled to UC as a single claimant1.
1 UC (TP) Regs, reg 8(1); UC (MM Pilot) Regs, reg 5(3); UC, PIP, JSA & ESA (D&A) Regs, reg 9(8)

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/903312/adm15-20.pdf

With regards to SDP, CPAG advises the following:
If, however, you have transferred to UC via natural migration and you or your partner were entitled to the severe disability premium in your previous award of income support (IS), income-based jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) or income-related ESA, you may be entitled to an additional amount of UC. This is called a ‘transitional SDP amount’.
You are entitled to a transitional SDP amount if:

you (or your partner where you get UC as a couple) claimed UC and within the month before your UC entitlement started, you (or your partner where you get UC as a couple) were entitled to IS, income-based JSA or income-related ESA that included the severe disability premium. If your benefit stopped during the month, you must have continued to satisfy the conditions for the severe disability premium; and

your award of UC has continued (and since claiming UC you have not become, or stopped being, a member of a couple); and

you (or your partner) still get a ‘qualifying benefit’ for the severe disability premium ; and

no one has become your carer (or your partner’s carer if the severe disability premium was paid to your partner), or a carer for both you and your partner if both of you were entitled to the severe disability premium).
Once you are entitled to a transitional SDP amount under the rules above, it continues to be included in your UC even if (for example) you stop getting a ‘qualifying benefit’ or someone becomes a carer for you. However, if your UC award ends (including if this is because you become or stop being a member of a couple), you cannot get a transitional SDP amount in any subsequent award.

So, will my couple get any TP or do they both needed to have had an entitlement to the SDP?

[ Edited: 17 Sep 2020 at 05:32 pm by JojoMitchell ]
Ianb
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JojoMitchell - 17 September 2020 05:17 PM

E…With regards to SDP, CPAG advises the following:
If, however, you have transferred to UC via natural migration and you or your partner were entitled to the severe disability premium in your previous award of income support (IS), income-based jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) or income-related ESA, you may be entitled to an additional amount of UC. This is called a ‘transitional SDP amount’.
You are entitled to a transitional SDP amount if:
.... If your benefit stopped during the month, you must have continued to satisfy the conditions for the severe disability premium; ..

When partner moved in he lost entitled to SDP as she is not getting a disability benefit so there will be no TP. (Elliott mentioned this in first reply.)

Charles
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Although Ian (and Elliott) are certainly correct as to DWP’s intention, and that is also what happens in practice, I believe the regs are drafted badly, and actually do provide for an SDP Transitional Element in a case where the ESA award has not ended prior to the UC claim.

Elliot Kent
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This is what happens when trying to answer six questions at once - just get them all wrong apparently.

Charles is correct about that also, although DWP probably will not accept that without a fight.

JojoMitchell
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Charles - 17 September 2020 06:32 PM

Although Ian (and Elliott) are certainly correct as to DWP’s intention, and that is also what happens in practice, I believe the regs are drafted badly, and actually do provide for an SDP Transitional Element in a case where the ESA award has not ended prior to the UC claim.

Have you had any success?!

Charles
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Nope, never tried it. If you go for it, let us know what happens!