Deductions for fines

It’s a DWP decision, I guess the recourse is complaint or judicial review. CPAG have a template letter:
https://cpag.org.uk/welfare-rights/judicial-review/judicial-review-pre-action-letters/deductions-uc

As with deductions for overpayments incurred through fraud, DWP seem very reluctant to acknowledge that they have discretion to depart from the maximum allowable recovery rate. Previous thread:
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/14891/

That said, 15% isn’t the maximum ..?

it is possible to request a means hearing at the court to look at the affordability of repayment. the court can then stop the third party deduction and agree to a separate payment plan. they can also look at writing some or all of the debt off if it is not affordable for the person to pay back. if the person fails to stick to an agreement however then they will be forced to go back to TPD.

Thank you both. I’ll take both options; means hearing and CPAG pre-JR.

This is a real mess; no one knows what they are doing. Court services tell me they definitely do not have any influence over the amount that is deducted from UC, and UC tells me: “With regards to the court fine, we are unable to adjust this.  Below is out guidance:
  ‘as the fine deduction is a court order, we must take the maximum deduction if it is available to be taken, as per the priority order.’

We are aware that when we have directed the claimant back to the courts, they have been bounced back to us, this unfortunately is due to a misunderstanding the courts have with our process. “

and

“Regarding the court fines - the 5% deduction only applies if there are other debts lower in the priority order that tally the total recovery up to 30%, we initially take the first 5% and then assess the rest of the debts, then anything left over is then added to the fine recovery up to 30%, “

(I don’t even understand this)

and finally:

“lobbying this matter with your MP is the correct thing to do”

My client’s MP is Boris Johnson.

Give me strength.

Jon (CHDCA) - 21 February 2020 10:54 AM

It’s a DWP decision, I guess the recourse is complaint or judicial review. CPAG have a template letter:

https://cpag.org.uk/welfare-rights/judicial-review/judicial-review-pre-action-letters/deductions-uc

Was about to post the above and see it’s already here, thanks. 

CPAG will be happy to check any completed templates before posting, please email .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address). If the matter is not resolved at the pre-action stage, CPAG will also try to facilitate a referral for litigation; a number of cases where DWP have refused to reduce fines deductions have already been referred.

Jo_Smith - 28 February 2020 09:29 AM

“Regarding the court fines - the 5% deduction only applies if there are other debts lower in the priority order that tally the total recovery up to 30%, we initially take the first 5% and then assess the rest of the debts, then anything left over is then added to the fine recovery up to 30%, “

(I don’t even understand this)

 

I have attached a powerpoint that explains my understanding of the regulations in place and how deductions are calculated, prioritised and reduced to the final amount. My reading of the regulations are that for rent arrears and Court fines by default are the maximum amount.

references for information
CPAG 2019/20
P1243 benefit overpayments
P1207 for how much can be deducted
P1209 for priority of deductions

Smee - 05 March 2020 12:52 PM

Jo_Smith - 28 February 2020 09:29 AM

“Regarding the court fines - the 5% deduction only applies if there are other debts lower in the priority order that tally the total recovery up to 30%, we initially take the first 5% and then assess the rest of the debts, then anything left over is then added to the fine recovery up to 30%, “

(I don’t even understand this)

 

I have attached a powerpoint that explains my understanding of the regulations in place and how deductions are calculated, prioritised and reduced to the final amount. My reading of the regulations are that for rent arrears and Court fines by default are the maximum amount.

references for information
CPAG 2019/20
P1243 benefit overpayments
P1207 for how much can be deducted
P1209 for priority of deductions

isn’t it usually a max of 3 debts at a time?

Written answer yesterday confirms that while the maximum deduction for court fines is the lower of £108.35 or 30% of standard allowance (25% from Octover 2021) -

It has always been the case that individuals can ask the Court to consider a private payment arrangement - both before a deduction from benefits is requested and at any time thereafter.

The maximum amount for repayment of court fines is being challenged by judicial review - 4 claimants being represented by Shelter and Hackney Law Centre.

A client has copied us a Journal message today in which UC state that he must contact the court to seek a reduction of a near-maximum deduction as ‘They send UC the deduction request, it’s automatic and there’s nothing we can amend from this side’.

Hmmm.

Andrew Dutton - 12 March 2021 10:34 AM

A client has copied us a Journal message today in which UC state that he must contact the court to seek a reduction of a near-maximum deduction as ‘They send UC the deduction request, it’s automatic and there’s nothing we can amend from this side’.

Hmmm.

This is UC’s position which they have defended in our JR above. The case has been heard in the High Court and a decision awaited.

On the same case, we have now been told that it’s Debt Management’s pigeon. Confusing.

On the matter of making a ‘private arrangement’ with the courts (see Daphne’s post above) it’s a long time since I did debt work, but wouldn’t such an application lead to Means Enquiry and its attendant risks?

Andrew Dutton - 12 March 2021 10:34 AM

A client has copied us a Journal message today in which UC state that he must contact the court to seek a reduction of a near-maximum deduction as ‘They send UC the deduction request, it’s automatic and there’s nothing we can amend from this side’.

Hmmm.

Isn’t that the same logic for all third party debts? They make the request and debt management allocate within priority and limits?

So a third party would state total debt rather than a repayment amount?

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/how-the-deductions-from-benefit-scheme-works-a-handbook-for-creditors/universal-credit-third-party-payments-creditor-and-supplier-handbook#how-the-scheme-operates

The screenshot is too large to upload but this is the application form the court would use

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-third-party-deductions-universal-credit

See our JR result yesterday:
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/17124/

With other TPDs, debt management decides the level of deduction within the limits set by the statute, but this is not done for court fines and instead the maximum deduction is always taken.

As identified above and in the decision, it isn’t possible for the fines officer to ask the DWP to apply a reduction below the maximum. The fines officer only gets to decide to ask for a reduction or not.

DWP argued that having a policy of always applying the maximum deduction because the claimant could ask the court to withdraw the deductions request was lawful but the High Court did not agree.

Elliot Kent - 18 March 2021 10:43 AM

See our JR result yesterday:
https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/17124/

With other TPDs, debt management decides the level of deduction within the limits set by the statute, but this is not done for court fines and instead the maximum deduction is always taken.

As identified above and in the decision, it isn’t possible for the fines officer to ask the DWP to apply a reduction below the maximum. The fines officer only gets to decide to ask for a reduction or not.

DWP argued that having a policy of always applying the maximum deduction because the claimant could ask the court to withdraw the deductions request was lawful but the High Court did not agree.

Great news

Deductions are one of many ongoing UC messes and the latest decision, I suspect, will be welcomed by some in DWP as well as ourselves. We find ourselves coming back to the whole issue of staff training and the quality of debt management.