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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Decision making and appeals  →  Thread

Steering Wheel for Grip Descriptor

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Memphis
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I keep coming up against the steering wheel grip as a case for the other side saying if you can grip a steering wheel you can grip a knife and fork to cut food also other uses to do with dressing this is PIP and also for the ESA such as carton of juice and using a pen, I cannot find a stated limit of grip needed for a steering wheel only that it needs holding at 9 o’clock and 3 o’clock with a light grip now accepted as a stated safe way to use a steering wheel,

     
ClairemHodgson
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bizarre. 

the fingers are used wholly differently in those scenarios
and someone could quite easily drive, but fail to have sufficient fine movement to do buttons up.

     
Memphis
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ClairemHodgson - 15 April 2019 03:27 PM

bizarre. 

the fingers are used wholly differently in those scenarios
and someone could quite easily drive, but fail to have sufficient fine movement to do buttons up.

Agreed but I am coming across it more and more, yesterday it was used that if you can grip a steering wheel you can cut up your own food needing no assistance at all?

     
ClairemHodgson
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Memphis - 16 April 2019 08:37 AM
ClairemHodgson - 15 April 2019 03:27 PM

bizarre. 

the fingers are used wholly differently in those scenarios
and someone could quite easily drive, but fail to have sufficient fine movement to do buttons up.

Agreed but I am coming across it more and more, yesterday it was used that if you can grip a steering wheel you can cut up your own food needing no assistance at all?

i could swear a lot, but that would be deleted.

that argument could be shot down in flames, of course, by any sensible medic specialising in hands, but of course, one doesn’t have that.

i’d be inclined to have the client do a statement setting out

1. what the problems are with his/her hands
2. what he cannot do with them, and why (for instance, they don’t bend, or whatever, which joints don’t work, that sort of thing)
3. what s/he can do with them, and why (i.e., why he doesn’t need to do the points in (2) for the tasks he can do)
4. assuming your client does drive,, and given DWP has mentioned it, specifically explain why driving doesn’t involve the issues the other tasks do

whilst typing this i reminded myself of my state when my rheumatoid arthritis became symptomatic.  I regularly found that the fingers on both hands swelled hugely, were screamingly painful when trying to bend them/touch anything, couldn’t do up bra strap etc, so on and so forth, and using a knife was particularly difficult - instead of using fingers had to use fist, and wasn’t that secure - could barely even open/close car door.  couldn’t use pen/pencil.  BUT i could drive and type - because in driving/typing i DIDN’T need to bend the fingers, whereas for the other tasks i did.

     
Peter Turville
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not forgetting most vehicles have power assisted steering so one can steer using the palm of one hand or a single finger (not recommended I know ... but) - watch a dumper or telehandler driver on a building site! I’ve yet to find similarly power assisted cutlery!!

     
Memphis
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ClairemHodgson - 16 April 2019 09:50 AM
Memphis - 16 April 2019 08:37 AM
ClairemHodgson - 15 April 2019 03:27 PM

bizarre. 

the fingers are used wholly differently in those scenarios
and someone could quite easily drive, but fail to have sufficient fine movement to do buttons up.

Agreed but I am coming across it more and more, yesterday it was used that if you can grip a steering wheel you can cut up your own food needing no assistance at all?

i could swear a lot, but that would be deleted.

that argument could be shot down in flames, of course, by any sensible medic specialising in hands, but of course, one doesn’t have that.

i’d be inclined to have the client do a statement setting out

1. what the problems are with his/her hands
2. what he cannot do with them, and why (for instance, they don’t bend, or whatever, which joints don’t work, that sort of thing)
3. what s/he can do with them, and why (i.e., why he doesn’t need to do the points in (2) for the tasks he can do)
4. assuming your client does drive,, and given DWP has mentioned it, specifically explain why driving doesn’t involve the issues the other tasks do

whilst typing this i reminded myself of my state when my rheumatoid arthritis became symptomatic.  I regularly found that the fingers on both hands swelled hugely, were screamingly painful when trying to bend them/touch anything, couldn’t do up bra strap etc, so on and so forth, and using a knife was particularly difficult - instead of using fingers had to use fist, and wasn’t that secure - could barely even open/close car door.  couldn’t use pen/pencil.  BUT i could drive and type - because in driving/typing i DIDN’T need to bend the fingers, whereas for the other tasks i did.


I stated this in defence and was told that microwave meals do not need a lot of cutting as the microwave softens food, I stated that this was not the descriptor 2 diii assistance to cut up food but was repeated the microwave principal then further disagreement was met with at the time he could drive so had adequate grip as he has to grip a steering wheel and no further argument allowed with the presenting office stating she stood by the HCP statement of normal pinch, My client does not want to take it further but I just want something to use as this keeps getting brought up

 

     
ClairemHodgson
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actually, thinking about it, when you’re learning to drive you’re told to NOT grip the steering wheel (the death grip is usually a sign of a terrified driver!)

     
John Birks
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If only someone had pursued this before now?

     

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ClairemHodgson
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but, that case seems to be about co-ordination - coordination when driving, coordination when cooking

that’s not the same as grip…

     
John Birks
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I counted 5 uses of the word grip in the letter of evidence obtained from MAVIS.

“Would you be in a position to comment in a professional capacity on the grip strength/technique required to steer, change gear, operate a handbrake and use the instrument stalks of a standard modern car?”

     
ClairemHodgson
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John Birks - 17 April 2019 11:03 AM

I counted 5 uses of the word grip in the letter of evidence obtained from MAVIS.

“Would you be in a position to comment in a professional capacity on the grip strength/technique required to steer, change gear, operate a handbrake and use the instrument stalks of a standard modern car?”

yes, but the decision basically ignored that, because they said that it read like a brush off….

     
John Birks
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I refer to my comments in #7

     
Benny Fitzpatrick
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What a surprise from Judge (“No”) Jacobs.

     
John Birks
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I was disappointed with that. It was used for the wrong case.

There’s a lot more data published available since then - see attached

I think the biggest issue is the confusion over force required to turn a steering wheel and feedback.

We need feedback. Some cars have more than others. The feedback feels forceful but it isn’t.

I don’t get feedback from my knife when peeling and chopping.

Since taht time we’ve got electro-mechanical power steering - due to start-stop tech and the MPG requirements.

I’m still of the opinion that unless something catastrophic happens (or you’re driving a very old vehicle)  you are not at risk of having the steering wheel pull from your very light grip.

The other controls use only a positive push/touch rather than any physical force unless you’re really swanky with all the glass touch screen switches and you just talk to your car.

How you can evidence the argument I don’t know.

 

     

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Mike Hughes
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You may want to revisit the “don’t get feedback from my knife when peeling and chopping”. You absolutely do as any competent medical professional can detail at length.

     
ClairemHodgson
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it ocurred to me that there’s probably stuff on the web about gripping steering wheel, and i was right

https://www.drivingtestsuccess.com/blog/using-steering-wheel

wholly different from how one holds a knife when chopping onions or whatever