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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Work capability issues and ESA  →  Thread

ESA transfers to UC due to natural migration

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Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Just got off the phone from a client who has had the misfortune of having to claim UC (he has longstanding mental health issues under the care of the CMHT). He had attended Bridport Jobcentre, after we helped him claim UC, for a verifying ID appointment. Poor bloke only recently moved to a new address, so could really do with a transformative experience (but in a good way).

Anyway, client ‘naturally migrating’ from ESA (LCWRA status) to UC.

We wrote on the journal Reg 19 UC (TP) regs 2014 several times including the bit for the Work Coach in which the client can put what they would like the WC to take notice of and…......., oh and expressly flagging up Reg 19 UC (TP) regs 2014, negating the need for fit notes too, i.e. carries LCWRA status into UC. Also requested an advance payment.

Client advised that Bridport Jobcentre said he has to provide evidence e.g. fit notes and evidence from the CMHT regarding his mental health issues, and then they will consider….................

Client also advised when he asked for an advance payment, he would have to do that at a subsequent appointment made at Weymouth Jobcentre , presumably related to claimant committment and where he has been told to produce fit note etc.

 

Peter Turville
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Just highlights the lack of understanding / training of UC staff and how difficult it is to resolve straight forward issues with UC.

We have a long running case (quoted in other posts because almost everything (simple) that could go wrong with the UC claim is!) where client was naturally migrated having been ‘found fit’. ESA decision was revised on MR but UC still not applied WRAE and still sent client for a UC WCA long after advising them of the revision. Quoting (TP) Reg 19 and ADM guidance appears to mean nothing to them given the responses on clients Journal (pure drivel!). Escalated through usual routes - but head & brick walls.

Dan_Manville
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be ye wary of handing long sick notes in in these cases. 8 weeks or more might trigger an immediate WCA.

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Dan Manville - 03 May 2018 10:55 AM

be ye wary of handing long sick notes in in these cases. 8 weeks or more might trigger an immediate WCA.

Why would clients transferring from ESA (having been found to have LCW/LCWRA while on ESA), have to provide sick notes transferring to UC?

Peter Turville
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Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 01:08 PM
Dan Manville - 03 May 2018 10:55 AM

be ye wary of handing long sick notes in in these cases. 8 weeks or more might trigger an immediate WCA.

Why would clients transferring from ESA (having been found to have LCW/LCWRA while on ESA), have to provide sick notes transferring to UC?

If they are migrating for a COC other than being ‘found fit’ a med cert should not be required. However because the relevant info is not being transfered from ESA to UC to apply (TP) Reg 19 work coaches may be requesting them for conditionality purposes etc. otherwise they will impose full conditionality until details are (if ever) received from ESA.
It is one thing to know what should happen, its another to deal with the practicalities of the lack of internal communication within DWP and the increased discretion (even if incorrectly exercised) in the hands of work coaches and the consequences for claimants (at least in the short term while you help them sort it out). I’m assuming that’s what Dan is refering to - unintended consequences if DWP wrongly advise a med cert is required on migration (or clients volunteers one) when they are not actually required!?
For claimants who migrate due to being ‘found fit’ they will require a sick note in order to start the whole WCA process again under UC.
Remember the mantra: sim - pli - fic - ation!

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Peter Turville - 03 May 2018 01:41 PM
Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 01:08 PM
Dan Manville - 03 May 2018 10:55 AM

be ye wary of handing long sick notes in in these cases. 8 weeks or more might trigger an immediate WCA.

Why would clients transferring from ESA (having been found to have LCW/LCWRA while on ESA), have to provide sick notes transferring to UC?

If they are migrating for a COC other than being ‘found fit’ a med cert should not be required. However because the relevant info is not being transfered from ESA to UC to apply (TP) Reg 19 work coaches may be requesting them for conditionality purposes etc. otherwise they will impose full conditionality until details are (if ever) received from ESA.
It is one thing to know what should happen, its another to deal with the practicalities of the lack of internal communication within DWP and the increased discretion (even if incorrectly exercised) in the hands of work coaches and the consequences for claimants (at least in the short term while you help them sort it out). I’m assuming that’s what Dan is refering to - unintended consequences if DWP wrongly advise a med cert is required on migration (or clients volunteers one) when they are not actually required!?
For claimants who migrate due to being ‘found fit’ they will require a sick note in order to start the whole WCA process again under UC.
Remember the mantra: sim - pli - fic - ation!

Oh gawd what a mess, i take yours and Dan’s points (i assumed similar but was curious on the detail), does anyone know if WC’s still have access to LMS, and could ascertain from that enough info to work out client has LCWRA? Having said that…..........

Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

 

 

Peter Turville
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[quote author=“Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District” date=“1525356008Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

Let us all know the outcome!!!

Dan_Manville
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Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

does anyone know if WC’s still have access to LMS, and could ascertain from that enough info to work out client has LCWRA?

Yes they do

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

Done that, the WC (oh the irony!) checked and turned off the WRRs. The SIL (in a meeting rather than on the ground at JCP) told me it should happen automatically but the WC I dealt with needed a real push to check LMS.

Call centre staff and the one CM I have spoken to do not have access to LMS.

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Dan Manville - 04 May 2018 10:40 AM
Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

does anyone know if WC’s still have access to LMS, and could ascertain from that enough info to work out client has LCWRA?

Yes they do

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

Done that, the WC (oh the irony!) checked and turned off the WRRs. The SIL (in a meeting rather than on the ground at JCP) told me it should happen automatically but the WC I dealt with needed a real push to check LMS.

Call centre staff and the one CM I have spoken to do not have access to LMS.

Thanks for the above!

Let us all know the outcome!!! Peter I’ll try unfortunately, client did not attend appointment today and has a history of disengaging (think he really struggle with the demands of UC even with support).
I’m not around next week. Will try get hold off him the week after.

We saw another client similar scenario naturally migrating from ESA LCWRA to UC (had a child), temporarily in our area moving back to another UCFS area, we’ve given her support worker to put before the WC - ‘Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195’.  On the Journal colleague has cited reg 19…........................................

 

CA Adviser
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Have had two clients today where they each was in the support group for ESA prior to natural migration and neither has the LCW&WRA; element included in their calculation for UC. It continues….

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 04 May 2018 04:01 PM
Dan Manville - 04 May 2018 10:40 AM
Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

does anyone know if WC’s still have access to LMS, and could ascertain from that enough info to work out client has LCWRA?

Yes they do

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

Done that, the WC (oh the irony!) checked and turned off the WRRs. The SIL (in a meeting rather than on the ground at JCP) told me it should happen automatically but the WC I dealt with needed a real push to check LMS.

Call centre staff and the one CM I have spoken to do not have access to LMS.

Thanks for the above!

Let us all know the outcome!!! Peter I’ll try unfortunately, client did not attend appointment today and has a history of disengaging (think he really struggle with the demands of UC even with support).
I’m not around next week. Will try get hold off him the week after.

We saw another client similar scenario naturally migrating from ESA LCWRA to UC (had a child), temporarily in our area moving back to another UCFS area, we’ve given her support worker to put before the WC - ‘Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195’.  On the Journal colleague has cited reg 19…........................................

 

The latter client was so exasperated at being told to provide med certs etc, despite presenting the above to the WC and our colleagues references, she sent a sharp message on the journal to the benefits processor in Belfast along the lines they should be completing a MGP1 form, it worked there was agreement, and resolution.

We had given info to her and her support worker re process and MGP1’s too.

Whether’s it related to ID, the above, client has illiteracy, client does not have a phone or email, whatever, we are forever having to give client’s everything from guidance via Rightsnet via commons library, FOI’s responses, Ministerial responses to parliamentary written questions, one of Esther McVey’s letters etc etc for interviews with WC’s or to pop to get help with making claims at Jobcentre if appropriate again and again etc etc. So they can get somewhere with it, don’t get fobbed off or expedite whatever the scenario is.

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District
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Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 17 May 2018 01:11 PM
Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 04 May 2018 04:01 PM
Dan Manville - 04 May 2018 10:40 AM
Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

does anyone know if WC’s still have access to LMS, and could ascertain from that enough info to work out client has LCWRA?

Yes they do

Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District - 03 May 2018 03:00 PM

Tempted to traipse up to the Job centre with client with Sweet and Maxwell UC vol 5, Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195.

Done that, the WC (oh the irony!) checked and turned off the WRRs. The SIL (in a meeting rather than on the ground at JCP) told me it should happen automatically but the WC I dealt with needed a real push to check LMS.

Call centre staff and the one CM I have spoken to do not have access to LMS.

Thanks for the above!

Let us all know the outcome!!! Peter I’ll try unfortunately, client did not attend appointment today and has a history of disengaging (think he really struggle with the demands of UC even with support).
I’m not around next week. Will try get hold off him the week after.

We saw another client similar scenario naturally migrating from ESA LCWRA to UC (had a child), temporarily in our area moving back to another UCFS area, we’ve given her support worker to put before the WC - ‘Neil Couling’s 29th Nov 2017 letter to Daphne about everything being in place since June 2017 and the admm6 guidance transition from old style ESA M6195’.  On the Journal colleague has cited reg 19…........................................

 

The latter client was so exasperated at being told to provide med certs etc, despite presenting the above to the WC and our colleagues references, she sent a sharp message on the journal to the benefits processor in Belfast along the lines they should be completing a MGP1 form, it worked there was agreement, and resolution.

We had given info to her and her support worker re process and MGP1’s too.

Whether’s it related to ID, the above, client has illiteracy, client does not have a phone or email, whatever, we are forever having to give client’s everything from guidance via Rightsnet via commons library, FOI’s responses, Ministerial responses to parliamentary written questions, one of Esther McVey’s letters etc etc for interviews with WC’s or to pop to get help with making claims at Jobcentre if appropriate again and again etc etc. So they can get somewhere with it, don’t get fobbed off or expedite whatever the scenario is.

 

[ Edited: 22 May 2018 at 04:08 pm by Andyp5 Citizens Advice Bridport & District ]
Keith S Adviser
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Daphne - 25 May 2017 10:31 AM

I’ll raise it via stakeholders too…


Following on from your recent post about requesting the vulnerable needs toolkit, I have again received a negative response:

As we have previously explained the complex needs toolkit is a digital product which includes links which direct DWP staff through to various internal and external sites.  I can honestly say that as most of the links are to our internal intranet system they won’t open externally and you will not get a feel for the product or how our sites are using it.

Personally I feel the best way forward is for you to come into one of our offices and either I or one of the site managers can walk you through the tool and really help you get a good feel for the information that has been included and how it will support our staff in helping customers. 

Dan_Manville
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6 months on and nothing has changed. I’ve had a CESA award with the Supp Comp (and a huge transitional addition) taken into account as income today but no LCCWRAE.

A couple of weeks ago A CM at the service centre demanded we supply med3s before they’d consider reg 19.

The message clearly isn’t getting through, whatever Mr Couling’s assertions all those many months ago.

Daphne
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At the stakeholders meeting yesterday we were told there is a new process whereby all new claims go to four centralised teams and are checked against CIS - where ESA is in payment staff manually check whether a component was in place and, if so, put the corresponding element on the UC award - so one person looks at the ESA end and makes the changes on the UC end - this has replaced the old system of emails from UC to ESA and back and is, we are told, much more reliable. So in theory this problem should be happening much less often - I’d be interested to hear if people are still getting cases and if they can DM me a NINO then I can send through for them to see what went wrong. The guy who was doing the presentation was keen to look at specific cases so that errors could be identified.