child element paid to g’mum on Uc and bio mum on IS

I have a situation where the grandmother, mother and children live in one home, G.mum gets UC with child element for Jimmy age 3,  Jimmy’s mother gets income support and child tax credit for Jimmy, what is going on here please, is someone being overpaid and if so which one.

Only one of them should be treated as responsible for the child. Which that is will depend on who has “main responsibility”.

UC Regs, reg 4(4) “Where a child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons who are not a couple, only one of them is to be treated as responsible and that is the person who has the main responsibility.”

UC Regs, reg 4(5) “The persons mentioned in paragraph (4) may jointly nominate which of them has the main responsibility but the Secretary of State may determine that question—
      (a)in default of agreement; or
      (b)if a nomination or change of nomination does not, in the opinion of the Secretary of State, reflect the arrangements between those persons.”

However there is nothing that prevents different decision makers from coming to different conclusions about who the child normally lives with (the first test) or who has main responsibility (the second test) on the same facts. That is not unusual, for example, with CTC & CHB where different decision makers within HMRC can award CHB to person 1 and CTC to person 2 particularly in cases where the child normally lives with two or more persons (usually seperated parents).

In your case if all three live in the same property the first test still applies. Does the child normally live in the same household as mum or g/mother? They may live under the same roof but (in benefit terms) are different households (benefit cannot be awarded to mum & g/mother as part of a ‘joint claim’). They maintain seperate households under the same roof (as can seperated couples who still live, or a house share where several individuals live, under the same roof) even if in practice they share many of the domestic tasks, bills etc and care of the child.

If there is an overpayment(s)generated it may make a very interessing / complex case to argue (given that overpayments of UC and/or CTC are always recoverable). You may need to look very carefully at the basis for any decision(s) given the complex facts of the case. It is entirely possible UC and CTC both conclude there is an overpayment because they come to contrary conclusions about whom the child normally lives / who has main responsibility.

Oh the joys of ‘benefit simplification’!

Thanks for these replies, please keep them coming, it seems that as the G’mum has parental responsibility UC should pay her but HMRC test is different so they obviously think that as the bio mum gets CB and lives in same house tax credit can be paid to her. >>>>IS it possible they could both be entitled , seems wrong but is it possible, for example if the bio mum contributes to child’s costs she could be eligibel to CB , which she does get and even though in a different ‘household’ to the G,mum she could still have the child living with her for at least half the week so can they both be eligible to get the benefits for the child

But that rule (contributing the same amount to the upkeep of the child when absent from the household) only assists a person to retain entitlement to CB. Equivalent provisions do not exist for the UC child element or CTC - for neither of which is receipt of CB determinative in any event.

thanks PC , so can ctc be paid to the bio mun and UC child element to the G’ mum at the same time, a recent UC decision looks at this but I am not sure if it is determinative   —-CUC/533/2017 [2018] UKUT 44 (AAC)

Are you thinking of CUC/533/2017? I thought about this when you first posted - it highlights that there are different rules between UC and family credit. However, I had a look at the rules for tax credits and they seem to be the same tes - ie where normally lives with two or more people, it’s the one with the main responsibility - so I don’t think that decision helps you.

However, as Peter said, it is technically possible that HMRC and DWP could come to a different conclusion from the same information - which would be good if they both thought the person who was claiming was entitled but a disaster if they both decided the other way

Daphne yes that’s the one, it look slike it covers the situation and for ctc I thought it was the ‘normally lives with you rule’  cpag page 184 so the child could normally be living with the mum but the g’mum could have responsibility for UC purposes. I see your point about the tax cr rules but that says they only apply where 2 people have each claimed ctc for the same child which is not the case here

Hi all

As in CPAG handbook p184-5, for CTC, the ‘main responsibility test’ in CTC Reg 3, Rule 2 only applies where there are competing tax credit claims;

(Competing claims)
2.1. This Rule applies where -
(a) a child or qualifying young person normally lives with two or more persons in -
(i) different households, or
(ii) the same household, where those persons are not limited to the members of a [5…] couple, or
(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii), and
(b) two or more of those persons make separate claims (that is, not a single joint claim made by a [5…] couple) for child tax credit in respect of the child or qualifying young person.

So if only one person has claimed CTC, then only the ‘normally living with’ test applies, and the mother is entitled to CTC. It can’t be intended, but there is nothing to prevent the DWP decision maker deciding the grandmother has main responsibility so is entitled to UC child element - but the fact that mother gets CTC for child is something the grandmother may be expected to have declared.

Mark

Thanks Mark, as I suspected a genuine lacuna, the G’mother has parental responsibility so even if she declared that the daughter gets ctc she should still get UC child element and of course there is no reason why she would know what the mother gets unless the mother disclosed it to her.  any more views on this welcome as I suspect when hmrc and UC find out they are each paying something orrible will appen.