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Best FoI request ever?
The question - I have recently recieved my council tax bill and would like to know excatly where my money goes.
On the minimal breakdown that is stated on the letter, it states i pay three different council departments i also contribute towards adult social care, may i state i do not use this service and i have no one in social care so why should i pay it. I also have no full time police force, fire service or ambulance service why am i paying for these. I have not used these services therefore why am i not refunded for the services that i do not use.
I want to know the excact breakdown of where the £936 pound i give to south somerset district council go. As i feel i am being ripped of and paying for services i do not use.
The response - Your question is quite broad and more than a little mystifying. To the extent that it’s a Freedom of Information Request, I can tell you that a more thorough breakdown of South Somerset District Council’s (SSDC’s) finances for financial years 2012/13 – 2015/16 are available on this page of our website:
The rest of your questions touch on deeper issues about the philosophy of public service and the extent to which these services should be free at the point of use. The Freedom of Information Act is not the appropriate platform to debate these issues. But I offer the following parable:
In ancient Rome Marcus Crassus became very wealthy by creating the first fire brigade. But his brigade was not publicly funded, nor did they sell fire insurance. When the brigade arrived at a burning building, Crassus would negotiate with the owner a price he considered reasonable to put out the fire. His brigade would let the building burn until a price was agreed. If the owner failed to agree, they would let it burn to the ground.
Whilst you don’t need adult social care now, you may one day. And the people who DO need it now aren’t in a position to agree a reasonable price for it.
Perhaps if you are interested in researching public service, you could use a public library (which is free at the point of use).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/where_does_my_council_tax_go
I really like this
Very funny.
[ Edited: 20 Mar 2018 at 10:49 am by nevip ]There’s actually a very serious and concerning point to be made about this about public authorities and their approach to such things. This was brought to my attention via https://danslee.wordpress.com/2018/03/16/new-tack-were-polite-and-human-as-hell-and-were-not-going-to-take-it-any-more-a-new-approach-to-online-snark/
At first it all seemed very reasonable. Respond to unthinking social media posts by sticking to the facts, except… there is a strong element of talking down to the customer apparent in the response and a complete lack of empathy with the bigger picture as to what makes people make such complaints.
The article to which I’ve linked gives two other examples. They both sound fairly reasonable until you do your own research and realise that in Bournemouth the campaign would touch a raw nerve because this was the place where the repair of reported pot holes was so far behind that one person took to painting around pot holes and painting the accompanying words “Fix Me”.
In Dorset the police comments take on a new complexion when you look at the report for the deaths in question and realise that they appeared to have literally nothing to do with the two things discussed at all.
I know people working on FoI requests who are overwhelmed with requests and would (possibly) love to have the luxury of time to compose such a response but surely the wider issue once we’ve got over our amusement is to look at what might drive someone to make such a request in the first place. Could it just be that for all the talk of plain English and transparency people don’t get the information they need and then have the double whammy of being talked down to as well.
Imagine how you’d feel if that was the response to your FoI response? We might be amused. I doubt the recipient was. It’s a dismissive approach to the public. We’re cleverer than you and we will show it and in public too.
No thank you.
That would be fine Mike except they do answer the question by pointing the person to the Council’s accounts etc which do show where the council tax is collected from and where it goes.
The enquirer complaining about paying for something they don’t use is also addressed in a way that I think explains what could be a complex issue in a fairly straightforward way and does, I feel, make a very good point about public services and what we might call welfare i.e. there is merit to society paying for things that are for the common good, rather than individual benefit.
Attitudes that say “I haven’t got that” or “I don’t use that” so why should anybody else are what’s enabled policies such as the two-child limit to be introduced.
That would be fine Mike except they do answer the question by pointing the person to the Council’s accounts etc which do show where the council tax is collected from and where it goes.
The enquirer complaining about paying for something they don’t use is also addressed in a way that I think explains what could be a complex issue in a fairly straightforward way and does, I feel, make a very good point about public services and what we might call welfare i.e. there is merit to society paying for things that are for the common good, rather than individual benefit.
Attitudes that say “I haven’t got that” or “I don’t use that” so why should anybody else are what’s enabled policies such as the two-child limit to be introduced.
I’m not disagreeing about the specifics. I just think there’s a wider point about how things get to the point that people think it needs an FoI in the first place and the tone of responses. I love the parable but if I were on the end of it? Hmm. Maybe much less so. It seems to me more designed to talk down and maybe stoke the fire.
The comedian Mark Steel did a similar piece
“Why should i pay for street lighting from lamp posts when i dont use em, and am asleep anyway when its night time. I propose we charge 5p to turn on a streetlight, and after 10 seconds it goes off. Just in time to get you to the next lamp post where you can put in another 5p.. “
He also mentioned the fact he shouldnt pay for fire service, as his house wasnt on fire
I’m with Mike on this one. There is no Opinion in FOI.
The reply is politically biased and if not is certainly philosophically biased.
The ‘clever’ response would IMO be highly unlikely to convert the writers POV. More likely it would add to their confirmation biases of the service provider.
Is there a CT Levy yet for Thought Crime?
So then, what answer should they have drafted to answer why someone should pay council tax for services they don’t feel they directly benefit from?
That would be fine Mike except they do answer the question by pointing the person to the Council’s accounts etc which do show where the council tax is collected from and where it goes.
The enquirer complaining about paying for something they don’t use is also addressed in a way that I think explains what could be a complex issue in a fairly straightforward way and does, I feel, make a very good point about public services and what we might call welfare i.e. there is merit to society paying for things that are for the common good, rather than individual benefit.
Attitudes that say “I haven’t got that” or “I don’t use that” so why should anybody else are what’s enabled policies such as the two-child limit to be introduced.
You’ve answered your own question. They should point to where the money is collected from; where it goes; explain the legal restrictions around that. Whether or not they should pay for something they don’t use is not a legitimate FoI request and should be treated as such. Nor is it the role of an FoI officer to address social attitudes. Entertaining (and patronising) as it was, the answer exceeded the powers of the officer and needs to be seen in that light. Go down that road and where exactly does a line get drawn?
The attitude expressed by the applicant is clearly one most if not all of us on here would disagree with but suggesting that the failure of an FoI answer to address a person being a selfish arse contributes somehow to poor policy formulation seems a stretch to say the least. As John said far more eloquently than I, there’s no opinion to be expressed in an FoI response.
In ancient Rome Marcus Crassus became very wealthy by creating the first fire brigade. But his brigade was not publicly funded, nor did they sell fire insurance. When the brigade arrived at a burning building, Crassus would negotiate with the owner a price he considered reasonable to put out the fire. His brigade would let the building burn until a price was agreed. If the owner failed to agree, they would let it burn to the ground.
Its comforting to know that are bureaucrats are still classically trained.
So then, what answer should they have drafted to answer why someone should pay council tax for services they don’t feel they directly benefit from?
It was probably a rhetorical question and hence vexatious. It was in any case not an FOI request but is more of a RfE (Request for Education.)
I’d explain the information is well dispersed ‘in the public domain’ and would take a long time to put together as the principle in question is beyond the Tax reliant upon the LGFA 1992 and applies to all taxes.
The ICO says;
You can refuse an entire request under the following circumstances:
It would cost too much or take too much staff time to deal with the request.
https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-freedom-of-information/refusing-a-request/
or….
Philosopher Peter Singer addresses this issue in his book on American politics, The President of Good and Evil. “It makes no sense to talk of the money you would have if the government did not levy taxes,” he writes. Imagine, he suggests, you’re working for a car manufacturer and get $1,000 a week, $200 of which is taken in taxes. Why can’t I donate that $200 to the donkey sanctuary or use it to destroy my septum with illegal drugs, professor? Well, says Singer, your car company could not make cars without a legal system that protects mining rights, private ownership of land, accepted currency, transport systems, energy production, an educated labour force, patent protection, judicial resolution of disputes, national defence, protection of trading routes. So, as protesters used to shout at passing royals, pay your taxes, you scum.
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2012/may/08/ten-things-know-about-tax
quoting the G ......
“The question - I have recently recieved my council tax bill and would like to know excatly where my money goes.”
Thank you for your FOI. All Local authorities must tell local residents and taxpayers how their money is spent. This money comes from a combination of sources including national and local taxes as well as direct charges to service users eg Parking charges. In this case the examples you mention are not ones in which services are funded by a direct service charge.
If you wish to see our detailed accounts these are open for public inspection, and you can access ours here….
We would be grateful if you would raise any further concerns with the authority in the first instance.
OK my reply was “just not funny”............Sorry folks…..
Well that killed it.