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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Disability benefits  →  Thread

PIP and Carers Allowance

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Benny Fitzpatrick
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Attended a PIP Tribunal yesterday. Cl with uncontrolled epilepsy. Scored 0 points (both components) on original (paper-based) decision.

Appeal allowed-Cl awarded SDL and enhanced mob for 5 years. However, DWP presenting officer (yes, one of those!) attempted to argue that Cl’s award of CA (his wife has spinal problem and he helps with dressing/undressing) was incompatible with award of PIP. Luckily, Judge decided that the type of care he provided would not be incompatible with PIP.

Has anyone else come across this argument from DWP? I have noticed it in a few recent PIP decisions, but this is the first time it has come up at Tribunal.

I am not aware of any legal reason why PIP and CA cannot be paid simultaneously, but it appears DWP are taking this line.

Daphne
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There is no legal reason but it seems to be cropping up a bit - see https://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10581/ - with some useful advice for an argument from Neil in post 12

Bonnie
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I had this issue in a tribunal yesterday. Client had ERM and SRDL, the tribunal concerned getting an award of ERDL. Cl had an underlying entitlement to CA from a few years ago where his wife underwent knee surgery.
Tribunal emphasised to myself as representative the risk of cl’s award being downgraded if the panel found that he was providing caring responsibilities to his wife. Cl still wanted to go ahead and was awarded ERDL / ERM.
The issue seems to be cropping up more recently.

Benny Fitzpatrick
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From my experience yesterday, the actual nature of the care provided would appear to be the key, if it conflicts with their stated level of disability for the PIP claim. The Judge in my case was very careful to ascertain the precise nature of the care activities, which in this case were not in conflict with his stated difficulties.

Links mentioned above very helpful btw. Will be using them in future cases where this crops up.

Catblack
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Yes seeing this a lot. Need to discuss with client nature of the care. Have had the odd case where people had claimed CA because of advice from others re maximising their income but it might be a bit tenuous under scrutiny in appeal situation, i.e. two people with severe mobility problems providing care for each other when the care required is help getting in and out of the bath etc etc.

Likewise I had a case where the lady who was appealing had severe mobility issues - we were going for ERM - but the person she provided care for was visually impaired so the nature of the care was dealing with finances, paperwork, reading, checking food wasn’t off, supervising when cooking (prompting etc) which didn’t impact on her mobility.

So far, every hearing where this has been raised by the DWP (in their response), the panel have not made any reference to it but it’s always a possibility.

I would imagine that if a presenting officer did actually turn up they may press the issue!

Elliot Kent
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Benny Fitzpatrick - 26 May 2017 03:07 PM

From my experience yesterday, the actual nature of the care provided would appear to be the key, if it conflicts with their stated level of disability for the PIP claim. The Judge in my case was very careful to ascertain the precise nature of the care activities, which in this case were not in conflict with his stated difficulties.
.

I agree with this approach. There is nothing legally incompatible about getting CA and PIP but it could create an issue if say:
-The level of care provided contradicts the appellant’s claims about their ability to manage their own needs
-The claims about care provided in the course of the cared for person’s PIP/DLA/AA claim contradict the appellant’s claims about care to the Tribunal
-What the appellant describes as the “care” he provides is so trivial that it is implausible that he would have claimed or been awarded carers allowance unless he was doing more.
-The appellant’s claimed disability is so extreme that he couldn’t possibly care for the cared for person

If the DWP have a theory along these lines then, in my view, they should say as much at an early stage and provide the appropriate evidence.

Simply saying “the Tribunal might be interested to know there is a CA award” just invites an open-ended investigation of a side issue which is generally unlikely to obtain much of probative worth and which risks derailing the whole proceedings.

WR Adviser
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We have seen this a lot in Northants and have raised it with our District Judge.  Maybe this has come about with new staff on panels.  We wondered if this was a training issue.  Being prepared to address the nature of the “care” provided in relevant cases seems to be a sensible thing to do and may reduce the number of cases being adjourned soley on this point, which of course cause further delays for appellants.

martinw
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I have had a recent case where the appeal papers have come through, the decision maker, has brought to tribunals decision the clients claiming carers allowance for his wife, they have also looked at his wife claims and quoted the activities that his wife was awarded enhanced rate of both components, and the decision maker has quoted of his concerns that the client has had adaptations fitted for his care needs whilst claiming Carers Allowance

In this case however on checking the wifes case, she has sensory and depression, so requires supervision and prompting andno physical care

barbs1000
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We are coming across this all the time. Seems standard DWP practice. The words are even written in bold in the response. However, today is the first tribunal I have been to when the GP actually brought up the subject, but dropped it once it was confirmed the CA was paid for looking after the 3 year old disabled daughter.

Mike Hughes
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martinw - 16 June 2017 11:18 AM

I have had a recent case where the appeal papers have come through, the decision maker, has brought to tribunals decision the clients claiming carers allowance for his wife, they have also looked at his wife claims and quoted the activities that his wife was awarded enhanced rate of both components, and the decision maker has quoted of his concerns that the client has had adaptations fitted for his care needs whilst claiming Carers Allowance

In this case however on checking the wifes case, she has sensory and depression, so requires supervision and prompting andno physical care

I have had similar but pre-empted pre-hearing by arguing that the disclosure of activities etc. was a potential DPA issue. Documents weren’t withdrawn from papers but at the outset of the hearing the judge concurred and advised the PO that minimal weight would be given to said documents until such time as they could show authority to disclose. That ended that.

 

Brian Fletcher
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I’ve just got home from the most bizarre Tribunal experience I’ve ever had

Client claims PIP back end 2015 and awarded standard care only. Following a serious deterioration in her mobility due to a spinal condition, she submits a new claim on a change of circs; she gets absolutely nothing. Client is in receipt of CA for her son, who is in his 30’s with some really complex needs. He now gets 50 hours a week from social care to do the jobs she now can’t do because she did her back through moving a 16 stone bloke about for the last 20 years.

The first assessment was a fair assessment. The second assessment identified much the same conditions as the first in respect of her care needs, but cut and paste below the findings in almost every descriptor, the HCP enters ‘according to an undated carers assessment report’ she is NOW able to be a carer and she cooks cleans and does several other household tasks, therefore it is reasonable to suggest that she can carry out this task unaided. This exact phrase also appears for moving around, but substitute that she can walk up to 200 metres unaided.

The issue here is that the ‘undated carers assessment report’ is actually clearly dated 25/07/2013. It was present amongst the evidence at the first assessment, but that HCP presumably dismissed it as irrelevant and outdated because no other mention of it is made, other than its presence

MR comes back no change.

My submission was a rerun of the MR in greater detail, heaping criticism on the second HCP in that he relied too much on the outdated report, and had made his conclusions purely on the strength of it. They fail to address the dichotomy of the two reports (HB v SoS {2015] UKUT 346) and they should have better weighed the relevance of the evidence (MW v SoS [2016] 76). I asked them to reinstate the Care, and make a determination on the mobility.

It doesn’t start well because they haven’t got the submission I sent 2 weeks ago, so they have only just read it. The Judge asks me about what I want - though what i want is clearly evident from the submission. Then, strangely he says, ‘do you agree with the fact that your client has been awarded 8 points for the care, or do you want more? I only ask because if all you want is the mobility determination we can leave the care alone’

Strange I say because she scored 0 on the care.

Anyway, I agree that i’m happy with the 8 points for care, and i’m happy to ‘retain the standard rate of care’, and we moved onto mobility. Finally the decision is that we get the enhanced mob, and standard care back to 14/12/16.

After delivery, he then lectures both me and the client about her claiming CA. The SoS had appended the CA award to the bundle, and made much of the fact that she claims it. I had addressed the issue in the submission by pointing out that her son requires a great deal of stimulation and various other things that could constitute ‘care’ which is undefined in law. A fact which I pointed out to the panel in response to the lecture. ‘All the same though’ he said, ‘you should consider notifying the DWP as I don’t want anyone to end up on the wrong side of it’ (said while the other two nodded furiously)

Absolutely bizarre

 

 

Anne Higgins
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At an Appeal tribunal yesterday my colleague lost a case where the PIP applicant was receiving Carers allowance.  The Judge quoted a new Judge May Commissioners decision stating that if someone is receiving CA then this throws doubts on PIP claim.  Unfortunately my colleague did not get number of decision but it seems to be brand new.  We cannot find anything can anyone help

Benny Fitzpatrick
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I NEVER, EVER again want to hear anyone from DWP or Govt claim that they appreciate the work of Carers!

Paul_Treloar_AgeUK
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Anne Higgins - 09 August 2017 01:52 PM

At an Appeal tribunal yesterday my colleague lost a case where the PIP applicant was receiving Carers allowance.  The Judge quoted a new Judge May Commissioners decision stating that if someone is receiving CA then this throws doubts on PIP claim.  Unfortunately my colleague did not get number of decision but it seems to be brand new.  We cannot find anything can anyone help

So your colleague’s Judge threw a whole new line of argument into someone’s appeal hearing, without any chance for the appellant or their representative to consider the judgment in question, or to answer the “doubts” that the Judge in question thought this brought about and without any forewarning?

I do hope you’re asking for the SoR/RoP because that’s ripe for challenge in my opinion.

Brian Fletcher
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Paul_Treloar_AgeUK - 09 August 2017 03:24 PM
Anne Higgins - 09 August 2017 01:52 PM

At an Appeal tribunal yesterday my colleague lost a case where the PIP applicant was receiving Carers allowance.  The Judge quoted a new Judge May Commissioners decision stating that if someone is receiving CA then this throws doubts on PIP claim.  Unfortunately my colleague did not get number of decision but it seems to be brand new.  We cannot find anything can anyone help

So your colleague’s Judge threw a whole new line of argument into someone’s appeal hearing, without any chance for the appellant or their representative to consider the judgment in question, or to answer the “doubts” that the Judge in question thought this brought about and without any forewarning?

I do hope you’re asking for the SoR/RoP because that’s ripe for challenge in my opinion.

Absolutely agree with Paul

I was confused by the ‘new’ Judge May bit. Judge May has been around for a long time, and I searched for decisions where he delivered the judgment, or the main judgment.

Then I searched the new judgments made in May, and I’ve gone on to search every PIP decision this year (I think) for any mention of carer’s allowance - haven’t found it once.

I’m wondering whether someone has said something in obiter somewhere in relation to some other issue, and some zealous individual has leapt on it like a cat on a kipper

Daphne
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RIghtsnet is fully up-to-date with any published PIP decisions and I can’t find any record of it here either - so if it exists I’m pretty sure it’s unpublished…