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todays Daily Telegraph

Pete C
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According to the front page of today’s Telegraph the DWP are going to pay Experian and others, by results, to act as ‘bounty hunters’ to track down benefit fraud. These organisations wil also attempt to identify claimants with ‘lifestyles that are inconsistent with those claiming Incapacity Benefit’ as well as examining credit transactions such as household bills etc. 

I don’t know about anyone else but I personally find this disturbing, these would seem to be the sort of checks that are carried out when someone is suspected of a crime and as we all know the majority of benefit overpayments are not due to deliberate deception or witholding information but simple errors on someone’s part. The idea that widespread checks are to be carried out ,seemingly regardless of any well founded suspicion that benefit is being overpaid, is in my view a step too far.

On a lighter note I wonder If Experian are paying Gareth Morgan a royalty as he proposed the idea earler this year (see the old forum)

John Birks
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Don’t forget the TV franchise.

‘Dodge the Benefit Bounty Hunter’?

AGodfrey
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Absolutely disgusting.

I presume that Experian are also going to be helping the government identify those who are applying for credit needlessly since they should be entitled to more benefits? Or tax avoiders who’s tax returns are unusually low but spending high?

What happened to the coalition standing for liberty and the end to the snooping government? Maybe benefit claimants aren’t afforded the same rights as other members of society.

Ryan Bradshaw
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AGodfrey - 10 August 2010 10:18 AM

What happened to the coalition standing for liberty and the end to the snooping government?.

If you bought that you’ll buy an experian credit check

nevip
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The poor, the vulnerable and the workers are now going to pay the price for New Labour’s lax regulation of the financial sector whose naked greed and sheer profligacy has wreaked havoc on the economies of the world.  I don’t know who I’m angrier with, Cameron and his cronies or Brown and his.  And the sheer opportunism of the Lib Dems to sacrifice principles for power has followed a rather depressing pattern.

Bourgeois democracy – government of the people by the politicians for the capitalists.

John Birks
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nevip - 10 August 2010 12:31 PM

The poor, the vulnerable and the workers are now going to pay the price for New Labour’s lax regulation of the financial sector ...

The same that always pay.

AGodfrey
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Can you imagine if they had announced this in relation to tax avoidance? There would be absolute outrage in the media with the idea that an individual’s spending habits can be examined without any previous indication that they are doing anything wrong. Yet it’s ok for benefit claimant’s affairs and spending habits to be examined despite the fact that the vast majority are claiming correctly and honestly.

Unfortunately I think this step will be praised by the same papers and commentators who shouted the loudest against ID cards…

John Birks
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I can only imagine that those voices would be very very angry as Tax Avoidance is perfectly legal.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/aiu/summary-disclosure-rules.htm

Ryan Bradshaw
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I can’t help but think we chould be in charge

AGodfrey
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I meant more tax fraud / undeclared taxable income than the legal avoidance schemes.

The Democratic Republic of Rightsnet has a nice ring to it.

nevip
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Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

nevip
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Who will guard the guardians.  A question put to Socrates after he describes his perfect society.

Gareth Morgan
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Pete C - 10 August 2010 07:19 AM

I wonder If Experian are paying Gareth Morgan a royalty as he proposed the idea earler this year (see the old forum)

I wish!

John Birks
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The only new element to this is the fact that the task is being contracted out to a third party.

The DWP and HMRC already carry out data matching and the use of Credit Reference agencies is not new.

The problem would be, I imagine, that the contractor being paid a bounty (or commission) is more likely to submit cases where there’s even a sniff of something in the hope of getting paid.

The DWP would still have to make a decision on the claim via the DM.

Unless…....the DM element is contracted out also? Maybe the thin end of the wedge?

AGodfrey
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It’s not just data matching though as spending patterns and loans etc will be examined. The Information Commissioner wasn’t very happy about this and people were suggesting there was a HRA angle to it as well. Maybe the Coalition will decide it is more hassle than it is worth.

John Birks
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I would have thought spending patterns couldn’t be identified as the data recorded (as I remember) by credit reference agencies is loan amounts/dates/repayments, details of searches and by whom, credit card accounts (balances and limits.)

They would also indicate financial association with other people. Which is the element used on LTAHAW cases.

Would it be wrong to assume that maybe the credit reference agencies are pushing the ‘positives’ on with the view to soliciting new funding streams?

The credit crunch may have affected them as much as anyone else, if less people are taking on credit, less searches, less income?

In the real world I find it difficult to see how the information could be used without further investigation or a change in the law.

The statement from the ICO doesn’t seem too strong

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documents/pressreleases/2010/benefit_crackdown_110810.pdf

My guess is it will all blow over and nothing will come of it or there will be big changes.

John Birks
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“According to the article in the telegraph ( i know..)”

You’ve answered your own question me thinks.

It’s just headline grabbing by reporters with an overactive imagination and little regard for facts.

Like last week, the big story about ‘100,000 under 25’s on sickness benefits for life because they have blisters!’ Was this not the same day Lloyds was posting its profits for the first 6months?

Maybe people have forgotten where the money from the treasury has gone and really do believe it was spent on foreign holidays for the underprivilged up north.

Bank Statements are still private and the credit reference agencies won’t have access to those details.

They may see details of loans or car finance that are ‘inconsistent’ and that is their unique selling point as well of course as being very motivated as cases will fly in however weak as there is the chance of payment on commission.

As my dear old grandma used to say “Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good story.”

Ryan Bradshaw
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There is an estimated £15 billion worth of tax dodged every year, and then all the tax that is ‘lawfully’ avoided through loopholes left in by the politicians for their good friends big business.

But yes who can’t see the logic in causing more stress to those on the lowest rungs of society. There is no doubt that this idea is going to cause lots of injustices.

AGodfrey
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CPAG’s response mentions that the National Audit Commission estimates £40 billion lost in tax fraud each year with some estimates at £100 billion.

It has been Tory ministers who have been saying they can and will be looking at spending patterns, whether or not they will be able to I don’t know. However the fact that they are openly stating that this is the intention is bad enough, it is open contempt for benefit claimants and their civil liberties.

John Birks
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Are Tax Avoidance and Income Maximisation two sides of the same coin?

Al Franco
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“The size of the UK tax gap is estimated to be around £40 billion in 2007-08. This is a net figure after accounting for HMRC’s compliance activities, which reduced the tax gap by over 20 per cent. The net tax gap represents around 8 per cent of the total tax, which in HMRC’s view should be collected, and compares favourably to estimates produced by other countries. The tax gap is driven by a wide range of behaviours, from simple error and failure to take reasonable care to evasion and criminal attacks. “

source:  http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/pbr2009/protect-tax-revenue-5450.pdf

From Hansard: 
Tax Evasion: Publicity
Katy Clark: To ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how much HM Revenue and Customs has spent on advertising for the purposes of preventing tax evasion in each of the last three years. [3776]
Mr Gauke: HM Revenue and Customs spent £633,284 (excluding VAT) on advertising for the purposes of preventing tax evasion last year. There was no expenditure in the previous two years.

source:  http://services.parliament.uk/hansard/Commons/bydate/20100624/writtenanswers/part016.html

Ryan Bradshaw
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I happily admit my source must have been incorrect.

Wonder if the Government will go after the evaders? Surely if this issue was brought into the public domain, with the appropriate rhetoric, there would be lots of support.

John Birks
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Personally I doubt it would be as popular.

People seem to like to pick on those with less from some sort of perspective that they are better than ‘them’ (which of course they’re not.) It seems like a looking down sort of thing.

The super rich (billionaires) apparently pay 0% tax.

How else could they afford the yacht in Monaco?

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/tax/income/article.html?in_article_id=421577&in_page_id=77

nevip
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From the article.

“Liberal Democrat Treasury spokesman Lord Oakeshott said: ‘These devastating figures prove that the richer you are, the less tax you pay in Brown’s Britain. Gordon Brown won’t get a grip on rich men’s tax-dodging when close adviser Geoffrey Robinson used offshore trusts and Sir Ronald Cohen [who bankrolled Mr Brown’s leadership campaign] conceals whether he is domiciled in Britain for tax purposes.’ “

Go on then Lord Oakeshott, what are you going to do about it?  You’re in power, now’s your chance!

John Birks
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I doubt he’ll be able to do much.

Seems the topman has the top man just where he wants him.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=511925&in_page_id=2&ct=5

nevip
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Its the oldest trick in the book.  Divide and rule.  If the rest of the working class are busy pouring approbation and scorn on benefit claimants then they are not noticing the bankers dancing off into the sunset with our money.  It is also being used to legitimize cutting public spending as it gains acceptibility for the principle.  After all who would argue against protecting the public purse against fraud.  Notice how New Labour put a different slant on it with their phrase “hard working families” (a phrase which chimes very well with the protestant work ethic so loved by Scottish presbyterians like Gordon Brown) implying there was some kind of moral difference between those on benefits and those who are not.  With all the bile from the gutter press how long before there is a slew of hate crimes against benefit claimants.

Stevegale
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“Wonder if the Government will go after the evaders?”  Only if the alleged ‘evaders’ are not making large contributions to political parties I would say (allegedly), but course that couldn’t possibly happen in the UK, could it?