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blue volumes RIP ??

shawn mach
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hi -

we understand that there’s a possibility that the DWP could be about to take the decision to stop publishing The Law relating to Social Security, known as the ‘Blue Volumes’ ... 

(nb - the Blue Volumes contain consolidated legislation, and are currently available @ http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/law-volumes/the-law-relating-to-social-security/)

to inform their decision, the DWP are asking for feedback BY MONDAY on -

- Do you use the Law Volumes?
- How often do you use the Law Volumes?
- What is your preferred research product for decision making (i.e. DMG, Law vols, mesher/bonner etc)?
- If you do not use Law Volumes, can you tell us why?
- Do you have any other information about the Law Volumes that you would like to share with us?

we’re happy to collect your feedback and send it on to the DWP on monday if that would be helpful .... if so, if you want to add your thoughts to this thread ...

cheers - shawn

[ Edited: 24 Sep 2010 at 12:56 pm by shawn mach ]
Kevin D
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Blimey!  Definitely keep.  The BVs are utterly invaluable as an identifiable source of “original” copies of the legislation.  I regularly use them as a source of the definitive version of the legislation insofar as the BVs are unlikely to have content reproduced in error.  Even the most highly regarded benefit “bibles” (e.g. HB/CTB legislation by CPAG) occasionally contain important reproduction errors that are, usually, not contained in the BVs.  In other words, the BVs, the various “bibles” and guidance publications are all complimentary to each other.

If it is considered the BVs are underused, that is surely down to the lack of awareness.  For example, in my experience, the vast majority of LA Appeals Officers are blissfully unaware of the BVs and/or how to find them.  Does this apply to the DWP’s AOs?  And, how many WROs are aware of them?

Although my “visible” access to the BVs *appears* to be very low (approx 10 times a year), this is because I download a number of BVs and so don’t need to access the site every time.  However, I check for supplement updates every 2-3 months.  I regularly use the downloaded BVs as reference.  If I didn’t, I wouldn’t need, or want, to download them!  If I didn’t download the BVs, my access to the site would be substantially greater.

The amendment information is also very helpful (e.g. the margin references to SIs etc).

In summary, absolutely keep.

shawn mach
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hi tony ..

in the communication we’ve received it says ‘There is a real possibility that under the ‘Capability Assesment’ currently being undertaken by our department that the Blue vols would cease to be Published at all ...’ 

cheers - shawn

Gareth Morgan
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The statute law database is meant to to be the source for all law in force in a consolidated form.  I stress ‘meant’

Our own CD-Rom contains a consolidated version as well as stand alone versions of acts and regs since 1988 which do, AFAP, contain links internally.

nevip
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The statute law database is no substitute as not all relevant legislation is on there.  I use that database frequently, largely for non social security legislation and it is an excellent resource.

My objection to the Department’s proposals follows on from Jan’s post.  Not all claimants (or even some advisers) are in a position, for one reason or another, to access the internet.  Jan mentions the fact that social security offices use to carry the volumes but probably not now.  If memory serves did not the larger reference libraries also carry them?  If not or they no longer do so then there should be easily accessible volumes in local libraries or, at least free internet access in local libraries to online versions.

The Department should not abdicate its responsibility towards claimants for the provision of information to them to other government departments or rely on outside agencies that might not always be around or in a position to continue to provide the information.

I personally use hard copy Bonners and Meshers most of the time (and I take on board the point Kevin makes about accurate reproduction) for both reasons of speed (I know where to find anything I’m looking for in them in seconds) and for the commentary which often proves to shine a very bright light on what, on occasion, are very opaque provisions.  The commentary is also an excellent source of case law.

ClaireHodgson
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what everyone else said….

shawn mach
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ditto ...

our view is that they should definitely continue to be updated and published

whilst we haven’t used the paper copy of the Volumes for some years, we regularly use the online version on the DWP website

... as others have said, other (free) online versions tend not to be so up to date

one would assume that decision makers will continue to have access to consolidated legislation? .... if so, why can’t a version of it be made publicly available?

in addition, again as others have touched on above, there are also issues about equality of arms in terms of claimants (and their representatives) having ready access to the up to date legislation ... one would assume that removing access is likely to lead to greater costs in dealing with reconsidarations and appeals for both the Department and the Tribunals Service?

tony pickering
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I would echo what has been said above.  I use them on-line from time to time and when I have to they are invaluable. 

Practical example:  Last Friday I was able to persuade an income support decision maker to refer a matter to Leeds for legal advice only because I was able to point her to the Blue Books, at which point she took the matter seriously.  The particular matter shouldn’t have needed to go that far but that’s a different story!

Tony

shawn mach
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hi ..

thanks for all you thoughts at such short notice ....

.. we’ve forwarded on a link to the thread to the DWP ... will let you know as and when we hear anything further

cheers - shawn

nevip
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Tony

Do it through the Rightsnet link in Toolkit.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/law-volumes/

WarrenB67
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Tony,

The consolidated Blue vols are still available to view here

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/law-volumes/the-law-relating-to-social-security/

Please note we will be publishing the Blue vols for March 14 shortly - the only change to previous amendment packages
being that the hard copies volumes won’t be updated this time
- but you can still get all the updated consolidated law vols - until we fully migrate to legislation.gov.uk

please see update here - we will be adding to this in the next couple of weeks
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/lawvolnews.pdf

Also see this earlier thread http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/5960/

However if you find something missing please do contact me .(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)

Regards

Warren

stevenmcavoy
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I have never used them.

my process is usually disability rights handbook > cpag handbook > sweet and maxwell> ending up in ask on here/ phone the cpag advice line.

I prefer cases that dont go beyond the first two.

hkrishna
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While your faith in us is most gratifying Steven, the beauty of the Blue Volumes is that the legislation gets updated with amendments fairly quickly - unlike the S&M volumes which only happens once every 6 months (short of me scribbling annotations in my own copies ...). Most useful for copying and pasting when someone calls us and for financially challenged voluntary sector agencies who can’t afford the full set of S&M volumes every year.

I for one will be sorry to see them go and just hope the team at the legislation site do update both the Acts and SIs.

shawn mach
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just resurrecting this one…

as we know the plan had been for consolidated regs to migrate from the blue books to legislation.gov.uk and the doc that Warren linked to above said that ‘all the new 2013 SIs are directed to legislation.gov.uk’

however, had cause to visit the blue books this afternoon (http://lawvolumes.dwp.gov.uk/docs/c-0031.pdf) and whilst, yes, the more recent links from there do point at legislation.gov.uk ... they point to original not consolidated version of the regs

anyone (Warren?) have any uptodate info on legislation.gov.uk’s plans to publish consolidated versions of more recent regs and/or what timescale this might happen on?

for example the link to SI.No.983/2013 from the Blue Books (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/983/made) goes to the original version on legislation.gov.uk despite it having been issued approx 18 months ago and there having been numerous amendments to it since

(to be fair, legislation.gov.uk does help in highlighting which regs have subsequently provided for amendments - see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/changes/affected/all/2013/983 - but of course you’re then consolidating the regs yourself!)

shawn mach
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Have the Blue Books finally disappeared from the old DWP site? Will they reappear on legislation.gov.uk. Anyone heard anything?

We’ve previously linked to: http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/law-volumes/the-law-relating-to-social-security/

.... but that now redirects to an error page on legislation.gov.uk: http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/social security/the-law-relating-to-social-security (Sorry, this link breaks beacuse they’ve left a gap in it!)

Certainly this from Jan 2017, seems to suggest that they weren’t updating it after Oct 2015: https://web.archive.org/web/20170728194856/http://lawvolumes.dwp.gov.uk:80/the-law-relating-to-social-security/