To prep an appeal against a large overpayment, I need details of what payments the client received from jobcentre in 2003/04. JC say no records are available, which means that the only way we can get this, that I can think of at least, is from DWP's accounts. It will be crucial evidence. All I need is the dates and amounts of payments made.

Has anyone ever tried this? Were you successful? Who do I contact?

Any help appreciated.

Thanks all,

how did they calculate the overpayment, then, if they've got no records?

It's too complicated to go into Claire but thanks for your curiosity

Have you attempted to get this type of information in the past?

no ... just puzzled as to how they can calculate an overpayment themselves without their own records....unless they've gone back to the rates that applied for the relevant year and worked it out de novo...

Me too. If they can't prove how much they paid him, they can't prove an overpayment or at least the size of it. Maybe they need reminding about the burden of proof in overpayment cases....

The overpaid benefit is H/CTB.

Has anyone ever tried to get info from DWP accounts?

I hesitate to point out that JC don't pay H/CTB, LA's do. Are you talking to the right people?

I give up.

maybe whilst the o/p is of hb/ctb, tony needs details of what payments his client received from the DWP because, for example, his client should have been passported to full hb/ctb if they'd been in receipt of is/ibjsa for any period?

If the client submits that e.g. IB-JSA was being paid and the LA say it wasn't; on who does the burden of proof lie?

I'd expect that the LA would be unable to offer direct testimony; the most that they could say was that they were not told that it was in payment by the DWP. So direct evidence by the client should carry more weight.

OTOH if the client wasn't getting full HB/CTB why didn't they query it?

Tony,

In response to your original question re; DWP account records I am sorry but I have no words of wisdom. I will keep digging though.

You have probably already thought of (and ruled out) this option but did your client have his benefits paid into a bank/post office account?
Would requesting copies of all statements for the relevant period be a back up option? I think banks can charge a flat fee of £10 for this service but at least it would list the info you need e.g. DWP JSA/IB/IS etc and the amounts.

Chaos

Thanks Chaos,

The client says she was paid by giro cheque so bank statements may not yield very much - which is why I'm considering info from DWP's accounts.

I'll continue to pursue the bank statements anyway as the LA are likely to view the lack of this information sceptically.

Thanks,

Tony

surely ... the LA wouldn't have paid the HB in the first place without the claimant showing she was in receipt of relevant benefits? I take it the LA are saying their records don't go back that far?

and doesn't it then go back to burden of proof?

if LA are saying there's an overpayment because she wasn't on the benefits they thought she was on, it is surely for them to prove that positive assertion, and not for her to prove otherwise?

Wed 16-Dec-09 02:57 PM by Tony Bowman

Look, guys, please. I know you're curious and you want to help and make sure I've got all the right bases covered, etc, etc, but I really do only need info accessing DWP accounts info - honestly.

The obvious route is to start at the BDO, but I doubt I'll get anywhere within a month of sundays, which is why I'm looking for alternatives or the benefit of others experience.

Thanks,

tony, do i get the feeling that this particular case is driving you to complete distraction?

Hi Claire,

This case is not driving me to distraction but there are many things that are. Most notably, the fact that it's christmas, which is the most stressful time of year in our job.

The thought of all those people shivering in unheated homes (if they're lucky) on christmas day eating the last crusts of bread, whilst DWP and LA officials, content with the mess they've made of people's lives tuck into thier turkey and christmas pud. Personally, I'm anticipating a xmas dinner of pizza and beer - but at least my home is warm.

I can only offer this from my own experience: the BDO (in my region anyway) is the office that pays people's benefits and therefore also keeps the records of what it has paid to whom. I write to them with appropriate signed authority from the client whenever I need a copy of the client's benefit records, mentioning that it is a subject access request under section 7 of the Data Protection Act (the bit that gives people to have the right to a copy of their own records held by any organisation) and I look forward to receiving a copy of the requested records within the next 40 days or less.
If I haven't got the records by the 39th day, I write again and point out that under the Data Protection Act the BDO should have produced the information within 40 days and that time has now passed. Would they care to explain why they haven't produced it, or would they simply like to send it by return of post?
In about two-thirds of cases they produce the information with no trouble. In all cases so far, they have produced the information before I have had to start the formal complaint procedure and/or complain to the Information Commissioner.

Wed 23-Dec-09 01:18 PM by John Birks

How dare the decision makers and officers of the DWP tuck in to Christmas dinner.

Have they no shame, the workshy evil wrong doers?

Oh and them from the LA too.

Hi Tony

I think that, following House of Lords decision in Kerr V Department for Social Development (which held that the decision maker's role in benefit claims is not adversarial but should assist claimant in obtaining info) you could ask the HB appeals officer to use their contacts in DWP to ask for the info. You could also write to customer services at DWP and use Kerr argument to ask them to get info for you.

If info isn't forthcoming you could get tribunal chair to direct HB to ask for it or, to direct DWP to provide it themselves. I think chair would be unlikely to refuse to do this if fair outcome dependent on their info.

festive cheers and raising imaginary glass of egg nog

Ros

Would an NI record be of any assistance?

Thanks for contributions everyone.

I'm back from my hol's now, relaxed and happy and ready to begin the new year, which I will start with a 'subject access request' - thanks Toxteth.

If that doesn't work, I'll ask for a suitable direction as per Ros's suggestions...

Thanks and Happy New Year to everyone!!!

From my experience gained in a former life as an income support appeals officer I would suggest that the reason the DWP can't supply payment records for that period is that they no longer exist. The computer record will have been 'weeded'.
Once that happens there is no way for the DWP to retrieve the information.
If the claim has been live for a continous period since the dates you are interested in, they should still be able to confirm the date of claim.

So are we back to the burden of proof?

Thanks for this Mr Celine. The client's records have been expunged from the system, but I'm guessing that details would be available via DWP financial records. I'm assuming that they keep some sort of ledger that would identity all payments out and these would be kept for a long time as a matter of public record.

Do you have any contacts you could sound out about this...?

Thanks,

I'm not aware of any such records that would tie things down to an individual claimant after a claim has been weeded (and I did try at the time I worked there) and according to my mole things haven't changed since I left.

If it was a benefit that generated NI credits eg JSA you should be able to get a copy of the NI contribution record for the relevant tax year, but I can't remember how much information the record gives about what was paid out.

Bear in mind that as a result of the DWP's weeding of claims in this manner some very large probable overpayments cannot even be calculated far less recovered so this policy generally works very much in clients' favour.

Thanks for that,