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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #3870

Subject: "Technical overpayments - rule change?" First topic | Last topic
paulmack
                              

service manager, PCT & HIV teams, Manchester Advice
Member since
23rd Oct 2009

Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 18-Jan-10 12:52 PM

CPAG's WRB 211 had an article that dealt with overpayments arising when a partner left or joined the household. I'm sure i read somewhere that the law has since changed, or is about to change, but i can't remember where i saw the reference.

Does anyone know if this is the case, or did i imagine it?

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, ros.white, 18th Jan 2010, #1
RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, paulmack, 18th Jan 2010, #2
      RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, Tony Bowman, 19th Jan 2010, #3
           RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, ros.white, 19th Jan 2010, #4
                RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, Tony Bowman, 19th Jan 2010, #5
                     RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, jj, 20th Jan 2010, #6
                     RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, paulmack, 10th Feb 2010, #7
                          RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, Tony Bowman, 10th Feb 2010, #8
                               RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, victoriatodd, 12th Feb 2010, #9
                                    RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, PeterS, 19th Feb 2010, #10
                                    RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, PeterS, 01st Mar 2010, #11
                                         RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, ros.white, 01st Mar 2010, #12
                                              RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, PeterS, 01st Mar 2010, #13
                                              RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, Tony Bowman, 01st Mar 2010, #14
                                                   RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?, victoriatodd, 01st Mar 2010, #15

ros.white
                              

writer/editor, rightsnet
Member since
16th Nov 2009

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 18-Jan-10 02:36 PM

Tue 19-Jan-10 10:03 AM by ros.white

yes, you're right, it was announced in december's pre-budget report, para 5.22 -


'HMRC will also improve its service to people who start living together, or who separate. Where customers report these changes late, this results in an overpayment on their previous tax credits award. In January 2010, HMRC will reduce this overpayment by the amount customers would have been entitled to receive had they reported the change promptly.'

attached link to rightsnet story -


pre budget report story

  

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paulmack
                              

service manager, PCT & HIV teams, Manchester Advice
Member since
23rd Oct 2009

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 18-Jan-10 03:06 PM

Thanks Ros, much appreciated.

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Tue 19-Jan-10 08:38 AM

We've been looking for this too. There doesn't appear to be any SI's or draft SI's and neither could I find anything in the guides on HMRC's website...

  

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ros.white
                              

writer/editor, rightsnet
Member since
16th Nov 2009

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Tue 19-Jan-10 10:34 AM

hi again.

attached link to CPAG press release saying that new overpayment recovery policy started yesterday -

http://www.cpag.org.uk/press/2010/170110.htm

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Tue 19-Jan-10 11:34 AM

Some rules or guidane would be great when someone comes across it.

We need to know if it retrospective for either claims for decisions.

Ta

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Wed 20-Jan-10 12:01 AM

the risk in dealing with HMRC is that they'll get you as yampy as they are, as they say around here. i am glad to see t these overpayments referred to as 'technical' overpayments here.

it's worth reminding ourselves...

the law hasn't changed, and remains section 28 - same as it ever was....
an overpayment is the amount paid in excess of entitlement. HMRC has discretion regarding the amount it recovers.

the overpayments in question are calculated by HMRC not by reference to payments in excess of entitlement, but by reference to non-compliance with section 3 (Claims). granted, section 3 throws a complication into the soup, but the denial of a right of appeal against section 28 decisions has meant that the correct legal interpretation of section 28 could not be challenged and tested before the Upper Tribunal.

HMRC's overpayment recovery policy is not law. prior to the change announced in the pre-budget speech, the policy of recovering technical overpayments without regard to underlying or 'notional' entitlement had been in effect, and reflected in COP 26, since May 2007, following an internal review and ministerial decision.

Prior to that, there was provision for offsetting notional entitlement against technical overpayments. The problem was, it was not being applied by general tax credit staff. Nor was it stated in the previous version of COP 26, and reference to the procedure was located in one paragraph of the Compliance Manual, which was not readily accessed by generalist tax credit staff, and regarded by them as the domain of specialist Compliance Officers, in the context of 'compliance' investigations.

as we know, 'compliance' is used as a euphemism for fraud, but it has a straightforward, matter of fact, non-derogatory meaning (non-compliance may be wholly innocent!!!). Compliance is a general issue for tax credit administration, but generalist tax credit staff were not properly trained and instructed in it by HMRC.

The principle that HMRC should not seek to recover from tax credit claimants 'sums which are not true losses to public funds', set out in paragraph 15500 of the compliance manual, (before it was expunged in May 2007) is what this long-running argument has been over.
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1941&mesg_id=1941&listing_type=search

the first role of administrative policy is to give proper effect to the statute law, and it can be seen that the statement of principle in para 15500 is crucial in relation to section 28, where HMRC has discretion, the claimant has no right to a fair hearing, and the overpayment decision is an enforceable debt recoverable under Tax Act powers. administrative policy is not law, but it is subject to law, and a policy which is not reasonable, rational, or is operated in excess or abusive of a public body's statutory powers will be maladministration, and unlawful. policy which is discriminatory will also be unlawful, and if a policy is unfair to all, imho, the resultant injustice almost inevitably falls disproportionately on members of discriminated against groups.

"If the claimant reports the change in household late there will be an overpayment, even if the change makes no difference to the amount the person is entitled to." CPAG press release.

no judicial review challenges, to the best of my knowledge, have been allowed by HMRC to reach the courts, and it is believed that HMRC has conceded individual cases, but not changed its policy (prior to now). i am aware, from FOI requests, that at the time of the May 2007 policy decision, HMRC's solicitors were consulted in the review and advised that they wanted 'offsts' to be available because they could not easily defend decisions in court.

HMRC have been under sustained pressure over this issue from many quarters, notably Child Poverty Action Group and Low Income Tax Reform Group, undoubtedly MPs and the public...

please correct me if I'm wrong, anyone, but I'm not aware of any explanation for this policy U - turn. In the absence of such, I feel justified in believing, that for whatever reasons reality has dawned, the overpayment recovery policy hitherto operated by HMRC was unlawful, and that, not HMRC rules, will inform my approach to individual clients with problems with tax credit overpayments.

I am of course happy, that in time, this problem will not exist. : )



  

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paulmack
                              

service manager, PCT & HIV teams, Manchester Advice
Member since
23rd Oct 2009

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Wed 10-Feb-10 02:28 PM

This may not fully answer Tony's question about retrospection, but we've had a positive decision from HMRC this week on a 2006/07 overpayment. HMRC's original decision was back in March 2009 and as recently as 4 January they were refusing to budge.

We wrote to them again on 27 January, following the 18 January policy change. HMRC have now decided to fully offset a £3057.00 overpayment. Their letter quotes directly from the 9 December 2009 Pre-Budget Report in explaining their changed approach.

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Wed 10-Feb-10 03:05 PM

Thanks for this update - great news! Lets hope this will be the norm...

  

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victoriatodd
                              

Welfare Benefits/Tax Credits Adviser, Low Incomes Tax Reform Group (LITRG)
Member since
06th May 2005

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Fri 12-Feb-10 02:31 PM

HMRC have said that the new policy will be applied to all overpayments outstanding at the date the new policy started (18th January 2010).

So, if no recovery has taken place, you can ask for offsetting to be applied by ringing the helpline/intermediaries line and asking for the case to be referred to the notional offsetting team in TCO.

Where some recovery has taken place already, NO will only be applied to the part outstanding as of 18th January. Anyone who has completely repaid an overpayment will not benefit from NO.

Anyone reporting a change of circumstances to the helpline after 18th January should be automatically referred to the notional offsetting team. Similarly, any disputes after this date should automatically be considered for NO.

COP 26 will be updated in due course, for now it has had an amendment note added.

If anyone has any feedback or problems getting notional offsetting, I am happy to take it back to HMRC via the consultation group. You can email me victoriatodd29@yahoo.co.uk or come through our website www.litrg.org.uk

Victoria
LITRG

  

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PeterS
                              

Advice Worker & Appeals Specialist, Tinsley Advice Service, Tinsley, Sheffield
Member since
19th Jan 2005

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Fri 19-Feb-10 03:37 PM

This is fantastic news and will impact many of our clients (Asians especially) who are paying/disputing overpayments. Thanks for letting me know.

Is there any talk of HMRC looking back and reviewing all cases that might benefit from this change off their own bat? Or do they have to be asked to do it on an individual basis? ie Do we need to consider trawling through hundreds of casefiles, contacting our clients, updating authorisations and then making lots of phone calls to the helpline?

If HMRC are not planning to review all cases, is there any way we/you can pressurise them to do so?

  

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PeterS
                              

Advice Worker & Appeals Specialist, Tinsley Advice Service, Tinsley, Sheffield
Member since
19th Jan 2005

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 01-Mar-10 08:28 AM

The helpline says that requests for N.O. need to be sent in writing to:
Disputed Overpayments
HMRC
TCO
St Mary’s House
St Mary’s Street
PRESTON
PR1 4AT

People need to specify which financial year(s) they want reviewed. Otherwise they will only look at last year!!

They also tell me that they have no plans to automatically review all
cases which might benefit from this rule change. They feel that information posted on their website (I can't find anything yet!) and sent to advice centres (have you received anything?) is all that is needed!!! I don't swear, but ********!

We have quite a large number of clients (plus many others in our "catchment area") who may benefit from this. In order to deal with it I think we'll need to develop a form which we can use/distribute. Has anyone already done something like this? Have you any suggestions for format?

  

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ros.white
                              

writer/editor, rightsnet
Member since
16th Nov 2009

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 01-Mar-10 09:49 AM

Here's a link to the tax credit info on delays in telling them about partner moving in or out:

tax credit partner info

It says :
'If you delayed telling the Tax Credit Office about your partner leaving - or a new partner moving in
The longer you delay telling the Tax Credit Office about this type of change, the bigger your overpayment will be. But the Tax Credit Office will be able to consider reducing the amount you’ll have to pay back if both of the following apply:

•you took more than three months to let them know about the change
•you’ve set up a new claim as a single person or with your new partner
The Tax Credit Office will work out how much you would have been paid if you had told them about the change on time. They will then deduct that amount from your overpayment.'

  

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PeterS
                              

Advice Worker & Appeals Specialist, Tinsley Advice Service, Tinsley, Sheffield
Member since
19th Jan 2005

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 01-Mar-10 11:36 AM

Wow! they really have made it obvious by tucking it away there!!! Thanks for the link.

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 01-Mar-10 03:22 PM

"But the Tax Credit Office will be able to consider reducing the amount you’ll have to pay back if both of the following apply:

•you took more than three months to let them know about the change..."



That will encourage prompt notice of a CoC won't it...

  

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victoriatodd
                              

Welfare Benefits/Tax Credits Adviser, Low Incomes Tax Reform Group (LITRG)
Member since
06th May 2005

RE: Technical overpayments - rule change?
Mon 01-Mar-10 03:53 PM

Peter

Which helpline did you speak to (who advised the request must be in writing)? Was it the main helpline or the intermediaries helpline?

We have been told categorically that claimants/advisers should not need to send in dispute letters to get notional offsetting and that a procedure is in place for the helpline(s) to refer cases to the notional offset team for consideration.

If this isn't happening then it would be useful to know.

Victoria

  

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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #3870First topic | Last topic