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Top Pension Credit topic #1383

Subject: "Allowable expenses on self employed earnings" First topic | Last topic
Seal
                              

Benefit advice for Age Concern Torbay, Age Concern Torbay Paignton Devon
Member since
07th Feb 2008

Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Thu 27-Nov-08 02:22 PM

Pensioner client decided to set up as a taxi driver, for older customers.
Borrowed money from his brother to buy his taxi plates on agreement it would be repaid monthly.
After 2 months trading, TPS reviewed accounts and paid PC deducting profits and allowing the monthly repayments to his brother as an expense.
For some reason this decision was revisited and now client has been told his loan repayments cannot be allowed. This has resulted in non payment of PC.
He says he was told the loan was not allowable because it was not through a bank or similar.
My view is that it not where the loan comes from but if the loan can be considered a reasonalbe expense. Looking at CPAG it would seem that maybe it is not an allowable expense.
I am awaiting details of the decision to appeal. I wonder if anyone can advise as to the Regulations and if I am on the right lines.

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, Gareth Morgan, 27th Nov 2008, #1
RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, ariadne2, 27th Nov 2008, #2
      RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, Seal, 16th Dec 2008, #3
           RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, jj, 16th Dec 2008, #4
                RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, Seal, 16th Dec 2008, #5
                     RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, jj, 16th Dec 2008, #6
                          RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings, Gareth Morgan, 16th Dec 2008, #7

Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Thu 27-Nov-08 03:27 PM

Look at the Social Security Benefit (Computation of Earnings) Regulations 1996

13(4) For the purposes of paragraph (1)(a), the net profit of the employment shall, except where paragraph (10) applies, be calculated by taking into account the earnings of the employment over the period determined under regulation 11 (calculation of earnings of self-employed earners) less–
(a) subject to paragraphs (6) to (8), any expenses wholly and exclusively defrayed in that period for the purposes of that employment;

Paragraphs 6 to 8 are mainly about capital expenditure and I'm assuming that this is a regular expense


The DMG says

15580 When calculating the net profit of a self employed earner the DM should deduct from the gross receipts any business expense that
1. was paid out wholly and exclusively for the purposes of the business and
2. was paid out during the assessment period and
3. was reasonably incurred (see DMG 15586) and
4. is an allowable expense (see DMG 15590).

There is no basis for refusing an expense because the loan didn't come from a bank.


They might try an argue about apportioning expenses between private and business use such as fuel, road fund license, insurance premiums, servicing, maintenance or repair charges in which case you might need to look at the 2 cases below where you will see that, even where a car is used for the purpose of a business, rather than as a core part of the business, that expenses are allowable, apportioned by private / business mileage where necessary.

In R(H)5/07 the Commissioner says

"The question whether a car is capable of being "equipment" or "machinery" is in my view not one which should depend on accounting practice, but rather is a question of the meaning of those words in the context in which they are used. In my judgment, in agreement with the Secretary of State's submission, a car is perfectly capable of falling within either of those words."


R(FC) 1/91

Formerly CFC/25/1989

Income - earnings of self-employed earner - whether motoring expenses and telephone expenses for both business and personal use may be apportioned - whether bad debts deductible - whether capital drawings relevant
The claimant, who was self-employed in partnership with her husband and supplied accounts of the business, claimed family credit. The adjudication officer in awarding family credit did not allow amounts shown in the accounts for ... private motoring expenses .... The claimant appealed against the decision. In his submission to the tribunal the adjudication officer said that since the claimant and her husband had taken two weeks holiday during the period of the accounts, the calculation of earnings should have been based on a fifty week assessment period. The tribunal, in allowing the appeal, directed that the award of family credit be recalculated to allow as expenses bad debts, lunches, private use of the telephone and private motoring expenses. The adjudication officer appealed to the Commissioner.
Held that:
1. expenses that could be apportioned were motoring expenses including road fund licence, insurance and repairs and maintenance, and telephone expenses including rental charges. (Insofar as the Adjudication Officers' Guide was inconsistent it was not to be followed R(SB) 28/84 cited). Apportionment by tax inspectors was cogent evidence of the amount used for the business and should be accepted in the absence of contrary evidence;


R(H)5/07
Calculation of income - self employed earnings - deductible expenses - whether repayments of capital on a loan used to purchase a replacement car are deductible - whether repayments of capital and interest apportionable in accordance with proportion of business use
....The issues in the appeal concerned the expenses which were deductible from the claimant's self-employed earnings in computing the net profit of her business in accordance with regulation 31 of the Housing benefit (General) Regulations 1987 (and equivalent council tax benefit regulations) as "wholly and exclusively incurred ... for the purposes of the employment". .... The claimant appealed to the Commissioner, contending that aspects of the tribunal's decision were wrong, and that additional amounts of expenditure should have been held deductible. In particular she claimed to deduct from her profits an apportioned amount of the repayments of interest and capital on the loan for the purchase of a replacement car, used partly for business and partly for private purposes. The appeal tribunal had held that no deduction was to be made for the capital repayment on the car loan as the car did not fall under regulation 31(6) as "business equipment or machinery".
Held, allowing the appeal, that:...
2. in determining whether any, and if so what, part of the loan interest repayments for the replacement car were expenses "wholly and exclusively incurred ... for the purposes of the employment" the principle of apportionment adopted in R(FC) 1/91 applied and the apportionment should be in accordance with the amount of business mileage as a percentage of total mileage in the assessment periods in which the interest was paid (paragraphs 23 to 25);

  

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ariadne2
                              

Welfare lawyer and social policy collator, Basingstoke CAB
Member since
13th Mar 2007

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Thu 27-Nov-08 05:20 PM

My immediate reaction is that this is an item of capital expense, not revenue expense (though it could easily be wrong as I don't know how the taxi plate system works). It is likely to be capital if it is a one-off expense. That would not usually be an allowable expense for income tax or for benefits purposes any more than the cost of buying the car. However if he had borrowed money commercially the inteest on the loan would be allowable as that is revenue expenditure.

I don't think that the system of capital allowances (used in self employment) has any relevance in benefits law.

  

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Seal
                              

Benefit advice for Age Concern Torbay, Age Concern Torbay Paignton Devon
Member since
07th Feb 2008

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Tue 16-Dec-08 02:07 PM

I have interviewed client and established that:-
Taxis have to be regulated and display plates. He bought a plate privately for £30k. He borrowed the money from his brother and agreed to repay at £150 per week. In the event of his death or inabilty to continue as a taxi driver, the plate would pass to his brother.
The DM told client that if the loan had been via a bank they would have allowed any interest payments as an allowable expense but not the captial repayments. DM then told him he could be wrong and it may be worth him appealing!
I told client I thought decison was correct and likened it to mortgage payments where PC only pay interest on a loan. If the benefits system allowed captial repayments as an expense, they would be in effect subsidising a business venture.
I am inclined to advise client not to pursue the appeal but the DMs woolliness makes me wonder if I have missed anything.

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Tue 16-Dec-08 02:46 PM

£30K for 'private' licensing plates?!! xcuse please if i'm niaive, but is this normal? is it kosher? only it sounds like a racket...?!!

  

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Seal
                              

Benefit advice for Age Concern Torbay, Age Concern Torbay Paignton Devon
Member since
07th Feb 2008

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Tue 16-Dec-08 02:58 PM

Yes it normal apparently. Regulation is via council but plates are owned by individuals who can sell them on. Plates are sold on as people leave the business or retire, so its a nest egg for the future. But they can't operate without one.
Apprently some councils are in the process of derugulating taxis which means a lot of drivers will loose thousands when they retire or give up. A load about this in the local press recently because a neighbouring council is about to deregulate. The problem with deregulation is that controlled taxi parking will become a free for all and could cause chaos.

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Tue 16-Dec-08 03:19 PM

cripes! self-employed taxi driver is a welfare to work favourite, but i can't see JC+ helping with these start up costs! it's looking more and more like the global economy is one big ponzi scam...

  

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Gareth Morgan
                              

Managing Director, Ferret Information Systems, Cardiff
Member since
20th Feb 2004

RE: Allowable expenses on self employed earnings
Tue 16-Dec-08 09:16 PM

Then you're back to the business calculation.

Net profit = gross earnings

Step 1 is to maximise the allowable deductions for business expenses and, I think, capital repayments are acceptable here.

Step 2 is to then net down the gross earnings which are the remaining sum. This is ewhere the usuak tax, NI, half poension contributions etc. go.

  

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