this from a recent work and pension committe evidence session

(this is not an april's fool)

Committee member: 'Alan, literally on a parochial point that I would like to leave you with in terms of take-up, 100 metres from where I live is a Carmelite monastery; your Department is currently refusing the nuns their pension credit, even though they financially qualify.

This is happening around the country, and one of the explanations from your Department is that to award them pension credit would cause them to offend their vows of poverty, which I have to say is not a very good argument because it is nothing to do with the Government whether they offend their vows of poverty.

Can I urge you to look at it, please, because it seems to be unfair and, believe it or not, these Carmelite nuns have actually paid their national insurance stamps as well, but as a policy decision you are refusing them pension credit. It would increase your take-up figures, because there is something like 8000 people in this situation in the UK. Could you take that away and perhaps come back to me?

Alan Johnson: I will. First of all I am just checking the date to make sure it is not April 1; secondly, there is a whole section in our five year plan about Carmelite nuns.'

This is interesting - the committee member saying that the Carmelite nuns have been paying national insurance because nuns work for God and so dont have to pay national insurance I thought. That's why they aren't entitled to benfits. Someone needs to put the member right

We have been succesful at appeal on this issue on a number of occassions over the years for individuals living within various religious orders. Indeed, we were invited by one community to do a mini take up amongst its members as a result of individual cases.

The issue is whether they are 'fully supported' by the religious order.

In many cases the members may have worked in the past either before becoming or whilst a member of the order and therefore have an income (i.e RP or occ. pen) which they contribute to the order. If so they are not 'fully supported' as they make a financial contribution.

It has been our experience that DWP make a negative decision on entitlement simply because the person is living within a religious order and ignore the question of whether they contribute to their support from their own financial resourses.

We don't really expect the DWP to apply the law rather than acting on assumptions do we?

And it makes a change from challenging yet another poor DLA decision!

Peter

A colleague currently has a few of these cases pending for a group of monks (not aware of the order) and a group of nuns. He has all the arguments and regs sorted out so he does not need help there but I was wondering if you knew of any case law re - fully maintained.

Also how were your various appeals? Did you have to argue rigorously?
Were the tribunals generally receptive and sympathetic?

Regards
Paul

Paul

I am not aware of any case law. We simply argued a dictionary definition of 'fully' maintained. Fully meaning completly etc. If a person has income they contribute to the order they are not 'fully' maintained because that money will become part of the general funds used for their own maintenance. Equally, that income is likely to count as income for means tested benefits and therefore the person won't get maximum benefit.

Obviously evidence of the income and its contribution to the religious order helps! Some detail of how the order works in this respect is also helpful. Draw the tribunals attention to DMG 24166.

I don't recall having much of a fight at tribunal. After all the regs don't exclude from entitlement simply because a person is a member of a religious order and living within some kind of religious institution.

It may have helped that a past team member was a nun living in an order and well known to the local tribunal as Sister X!

Many thanks Peter!

Paul

Carmelites are an enclosed order and would not as I understand it) normally work outside the convent environs. Though many enclosed orders run businesses to raise income. Would this make a difference if income could not be attributed to an individual sister?

I'd love to see the five year plan. If they've got the nuns nailed in it who else gets a full section to themselves???