Just had a quick look at the new Green Paper 'Shaping the future of care together'. As reported on Rightsnet news pages it includes proposals in chapter 6 to 'merge' certain disability benefits with other social care funding.

However am I right in thinking that this will be limited to Attendance Allowance and DLA care component when paid to someone over the age of 65?

Derek

From what I understand at the moment, it is certainly attendance allowance that is being considered for the chop and reallocation to means-tested social care provision via local authorities - but given that the ultimate aim is to come up with a comprehensive and sustainable system of social care for all ages, it's difficult to see how DLA care component won't be similarly up for inclusion, in my opinion.

I think this would be very bad news indeed and represents potentially appalling outcomes for many disabled parents and parents of disabled children who already struggle to access social care services - say what you like about DLA & DBC decision making but at least DLA works on a national basis and provides an even-handed entitlement, whereas local authority social care provision is a hideous mess and bunging councils an extra £6b a year, or whatever the AA budget is, would be akin to throwing the money down a hole in the road, as a tribunal chairman once said to me.

An award of AA or DLA (Care) can increase entitlement to other benefits such as Pension Credit, Housing Benefit and Council Tax Benefit and can also trigger entitlement to benefits such as Carers Allowance (or underlying entitlement to Carers Allowance which, again, can increase entitlement to Pension Credit, etc.)

If the proposal is to do away with AA, does anyone know of any plans or proposals to ensure people don't miss out on these extra amounts?

I find it ironic that the government is pushing the personalisation agenda, direct payments, etc but is considering this. Surely AA was the original direct payment?

When AA was first introduced, it was introduced as a benefit that was designed to help towards any additional costs or expenses that a person may incur as a result of health problems / disabilities; it wasn't designed to pay for care. The whole purpose of AA is that it gives an individual the choice as to how best to spend the money rather than someone else deciding how it should be spent.

I'm doing a recording for a Radio 4 programme called "You and Yours" in a couple of weeks about benefit take-up (or lack of) among older people. Think I will try and get this subject into it somewhere along the line!

Would be very interested to hear other peoples thoughts and views on this subject.

John

Hi Paul/John

Agree 100% with your concerns about disability benefits being diverted into social care budgets. Apart from fear that entitlement will be linked to local LA assessment criteria rather than national qualifying conditions, there is the whole issue of whether the replacement system would be means tested and the fact that it is likely to dilute the choice that claimants currently have about what they spend the money on.

My initial assumption had been that the proposals would apply to DLA as well as AA. However on page 97 under a heading 'Costs for people who are disabled early in life' it says that people disabled during their working lives (this presumably also applies to those disabled in childhood) will have lower incomes and thus struggle to meet their care costs. Because they are on low incomes most younger disabled people currently have their care costs met by the state and it is envisaged that this will continue to be the case. "...For that reason the funding options considered below focus mainly on people who start to need care and support during their retirement".

Taken together with the fact that Chapter 6 talks almost exclusively about Attendance Allowance (or DLA when paid to someone over 65), it seems to imply that these proposals only apply to the over 65s. However maybe I am just being hopelessly optimistic?

Derek

My concern is that once AA is taken away, the rationale for keeping DLA becomes less clear - so I'm sure your initial analysis is correct insofar as immediate plans for AA, but my worry would be about what would happen subsequently.

A raid on AA (and they have not ruled out grabbing DLA) would be disastrous.

Here is an article I have had published about the subject. I could have added many other arguments, but was constrained by word length.

http://www.communitycare.co.uk/blogs/social-care-experts-blog/2009/07/adult-green-paper-could-be-cat.html

Understand the concerns - there is duplication though - anyone who has seen self assessment questionanires for personal budgets (personal care) - they virtually repeat questions asked on DLA/AA forms.

Surely if there is duplication, the answer lies in addressing that - for example, by better information sharing.

For those of us who are self employed, there is overlap in bookkeeping between VAT and other taxes, but no one suggests abolishing VAT just to simply the administrative processes.

Raiding AA/DLA would make poverty far worse and so would actually increase the need for social care services.

Based on what I heard last week at the DWP Policy and Strategy Forum, both DLA and AA are in the DH's sights and DWP are closely, involved in these developments.

I'm surprised the Discussion Board has been so muted on this...

from today's guardian ..

A squeeze on attendance allowance suppor: Plans to scrap allowance benefit could leave older and disabled people struggling to cope

'Campaigners argue that attendance allowance is vital to help older people stay independent and well for longer. Michelle Mitchell, charity director for Age Concern and Help the Aged, explains: "That extra bit of help may help prevent, or delay the need for more formal care." Receipt of attendance allowance can also make people eligible for additional support as higher rates of means-tested benefits and entitlements can be dependent on carers receiving it.

The RNIB is alarmed at the prospect of attendance allowance being scrapped because its clients – often defined by councils as having moderate or low care needs – could lose out entirely.'

thanks to NAWRA for the alert .... the DoH has organised a series of consultation workshops on the Green Paper proposals ....

... to register, see http://coievents.co.uk/careandsupport

In the South East there are two events on Reading and two in Tonbridge, none in my area (Brighton and Hove) or even Eastbourne or Lewes. This definitely rules our the participation of many groups active in the South East to this 'consultation'.

Other articles worth looking at are :

An institute for Social and Economic Research (ISER) working paper that highlights that that removal of AA would plunge hundreds of thousands of pensioners into poverty

http://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/files/iser_working_papers/2008-40.pdf

Further comments by Professor Berthoud at ISER - "The Department of Health’s recent proposals for the future of care may threaten the everyday living standards of millions of elderly and disabled people living at home."

http://www.iser.essex.ac.uk/news/2009/07/21/threat-to-disability-benefits

and a briefing paper that has been placed in the House of Commons library

http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snsp-05136.pdf

There is also the issue of how the AA/DLA budget would be distributed to LAs, including how the level of need would be established year on year. Even if the total budget could be disaggregated LA by LA across the UK, how would the inevitable variations in need year to year be dealt with? To add a further complication, in Wales if the AA/DLA budget were to be incorporated in to LAs RSG (settlement), then the Governments in Westminster and Cardiff could not hypothecate it as the Westminster Government can do with English LAs. In Wales RSG is distributed unhypothecated. I do not see how this proposal can possibly work.

I imagine there will be similar problems with the devolved government in Scotland. An awful lot of policy-making is very England centric (if not actually London-centric) and there are all these horrible mismatches between devolved matters (local government, health, education and skills) and centrally adminstered matters (tax and social security). They just don't think.
Don't even get me started on Northern Ireland's problems....

see update to our 17 august 2009 story ... Government confirms DLA not under threat as a result of Green Paper proposals -

'... we understand from CPAG that it has subsequently been contacted by the DWP who have said that no decisions have been taken as to the future of DLA whilst the consultation is ongoing ...'

That doesn't sound like much of a reassurance to me...

"Big Care Debate roadshow schedule"

Date: 27 August 2009

The schedule of Big Care Debate public roadshows, where members of the public can discuss and have their say on the reform of adult social care and support in England, is now available.

Between now and mid November, members of the public will get the opportunity to join the debate on the future of care and support in England through a series of events held in town centres and at other public events around the country.

Visitors to the roadshows can watch information videos and talk to Big Care Debate representatives, and there is a 1-2-1 area for those wishing to give their response in private. People can fill in questionnaires, or add their comments on this website, via a touch screen computer system.

The roadshows are part of the Government’s drive to engage with a range of people from across England, through a regional programme which also involves a series of regional stakeholder events.

Schedule:

East Midlands - 20-22 August

Derby - Main Market Place



West Midlands - 29-31 August

Coventry - Stoneleigh Park Country Festival



North East - 02-07 September

Darlington - Joseph Pease Place (02-03 September)

Newcastle - Northumberland Street (04 September)

Wolsingham - Wolsingham and Wear Valley Show (05-07 September)



East Midlands - 09-13 September

Nottingham - Smithy Row (10 September)

Leicester - Humberstone Gate West (11 September)

Leicester - Highcross (11-13 September)



North West - 16-21 September

Carlisle - Greenmarket (16-17 September)

Manchester - Exchange Square (18-19 September)

Manchester - Old Trafford Centre (20-21 September)



East of England - 23-29 September

Bedford - Church Square (23 September)

tbc - (24 September)

Norwich - tbc (25-26 September)

Norwich - Chapel Fields (28-29 September)



Yorkshire and the Humber - 30 September - 05 October

Hull - King Edward Street (30 September-01 October)

Leeds - Briggate (02-03 October)

Leeds - White Rose Centre (04-05 October)



South West

Exeter - Bedford Street (07-08 October)

Bournemouth/Southampton - tbc (09-10 October)



Greater London

Central London - tbc (14-15 October)

Greater London - tbc (16-18 October)

More details at http://careandsupport.direct.gov.uk/news/2009/08/big-care-debate-roadshow-schedule/

Brilliant - because the green paper is looking at England, these roadshows (for the good it will do!) are only in England, ignoring the obvious consequences it will have on us in Wales, Scotland and NI

They also ignore Brighton and Hove and adjacent areas.

Abd north Hampshire, Berkshire, Wiltshire, Oxfordshire...

Banking - Green Paper and how WE are going to pay for their insania! Does anyone know when the BIG CONversation/Roadshows start?

from disability alliance -

'Members of the Scottish Parliament have supported a motion opposing the integration of attendance allowance into the care and support system in order to fund future support and care for the elderly in England, as this is likely to affect the care system in Scotland.'

http://www.disabilityalliance.org/care6b.htm

The Care roadshow has already started and goes through Sept - Check a bit further up this thread, there is a link to the web site(h)

All the venues are OUTSIDE - setting up a caravan (with table and big brolly), touch screen computers and video, also issuing questionaires and leaflets. The Caravan of Care ! wasnt that a song


Sounds like the consultation is done on the cheap and not aimed at those who will be affected - discouraging a full responce

"Wolsingham - Wolsingham and Wear Valley Show (05-07 September)" yes they're going to get lots of affected people there.... mmph. not.

There's an online petition against any possible transfer of AA/DLA. Please sign and pass onto others:

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AttendanceA/

"We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise the vital support that Attendance Allowance (AA) and Disability Living Allowance (DLA) provide to disabled people, and to ensure that these benefits are secured and are not removed as part of any future reform of the social care system in England.

Submitted by Peter Hand of Mencap"

Care Services Minister Phil Hope has said 'DLA is not under threat and people can be very happy' ..

see today's rightsnet news Government has no plans to abolish disability living allowance: Benefit is not under threat, says Care Services Minister

Oh so that's alright then? They are really thinking of raiding AA!

All the more reason to sign the petition and keep up the pressure on this issue so they (or the Tories) don't try it on with DLA.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/AttendanceA/

The Minister did actualy say he would listen to arguments for including DLA to fund care services - So his "no" answer is not realy NO but "we are considering it but not admitting to that".

And of course this links to the Labours Conference announcement of 'free home care' and obviously funded by the plans for AA and DLA care!

I agree with 'Sanwyp', they have not changed their plans, they are going ahead.

So cats out of the bag again then ! Lord Mckenzies own words put paid to previous and spurious answers by ministers, deputy or not

DLA on its way !

health secretary has now said 'I can state categorically that we have now ruled out any suggestion that DLA for under-65s will be brought into the new National Care Service' ... see yesterday's rightsnet news

Health Secretary rules out integrating DLA into new social care system: However future of attendance allowance remains uncertain

You can find more coverage of the statements made at last week’s National Children and Adult Services Conference by the government and the opposition on the future of AA and DLA in an article in the latest Community Care magazine – “Funding doubts over adult care policies” http://www.communitycare.co.uk/Articles/2009/10/26/112981/funding-doubts-over-adult-care-policies.html

The magazine summarises the respective positions of the major political parties as

Labour:
● Free personal care at home for people with critical care needs, funded by DH and council efficiency savings.
● All care home residents and home care users with lesser needs to receive some state funding for personal care, financed by attendance allowance budget.
● Balance of personal care costs met through voluntary or compulsory insurance.
● Means-testing retained for care home accommodation costs.
Conservatives:
● Attendance allowance retained as benefit.
● People insured against all residential care costs by £8,000 one-off payment on retirement.

Note "for under 65's". No guarantee that DLA after your 65th birthday won't be chucked into the 'social care' pot - indeed it would probably have to be if AA is taken away.

Incidentally the impact assessment attached to the Green Paper has a lot of interesting figures. All the financial projections, for all models of funding ASSUME that AA is available for social care funding. With that assumption the goverment's preferred model - 'Partnership' - shows a net saving in Government expenditure of £1.1 billion by 2024 compared to the present system, AFTER taking into account all the demographic pressures tending to increase expenditure.

Ricard Atkinson

from community care ..

Stakeholders have reacted with fury after it emerged that the government would be delaying until next year the publication of its figures on how much a revamped adult care system will cost.

@ Adult green paper: Campaigners slam delay to financial model

A coalition of leading charities is set to issue a freedom of information request to force the government to reveal figures on how much a revamped adult social care system will cost.

@ Campaigners threaten FoI to reveal green paper finance data

BBC news today, referring to the social care bill

"But Health Secretary Andy Burnham described these suggestions as "disgraceful" and said the £670m required to finance the plan would come from his existing budget as resources are re-prioritised.
"I just think it is really gutter politics to raise concerns among some of the most vulnerable people in our society that their benefits will be cut," he told the BBC.
Mr Burnham said it was an option to cut attendance allowances - tax-free benefits for pensioners who need personal care because they are physically or mentally disabled - to fund long-term reform of social care.
But he said this had yet to decided upon, adding: "We have said that anyone in receipt of those benefits would get an equivalent level of support." "

debate on this yesterday in the commons ...

.... includes discussion of the fact that whilst the government had been saying that existing claimants would continue to receive an 'equivalent level of support' under a new system, it's now saying that 'there would be no cash losers from this reform. That will remain the case for life. Existing benefits recipients will keep the cash ...'

hansard link