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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #2986

Subject: "Tax credit shambles" First topic | Last topic
Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

Tax credit shambles
Thu 21-Feb-08 01:16 PM

Thu 21-Feb-08 01:16 PM by Tony Bowman

We've been letting off steam in the office about tax credits. Some of the words and phrases we've used about the tax credits office recently include:

- unaccountable
- unlawful
- law unto themselves
- can't progress a complaint
- confusion
- incomptence
- maladministration
- deprive of appeal rights
- move the goalposts
- make it up as they go
- bad grammar
- don't understand the law
- confusing letters
- IQ of a fish
- we've never had a tax credit appeal (all four of us in the five years it's been going!)


Only thing is, it seems to us that media interest is waning somewhat in the awfulness of the system. I suspect the Ombdusman and Adjudicator are fed up with issuing reports and have moved on to other things. In the meantime, HMRC and the tax credit officers are getting away with extreme incomptence and railroading clients and advisers alike in to seeing the system in thier own way. the DWP would never, ever be allowed to get away with such appalling maladministration (yes, I know they do, but at least they are somewhat accountable and do tend to deal properly with complaints at senior level).

Anyway, the point is, what are we going to do about it?

How long do we have to sit in our mostly publicy-funded offices policing government departments and thier administration of a system which often seems designed to CAUSE poverty rather than alleviating it!?

I think it has to be down to us welfs! We, amongst many other advice/support agencies, are in the front-line and we have the first hand experience of the problems and hardships people are made to suffer at the hands of the TCO and HMRC.

We think that a co-ordinated campaign is required: demonstrations, rallies, simultaneous press releases, bombard No 10 or MP's, whatever, anything; anything that will get this terrible system either got rid of or fixed!

Any ideas on an approach that be will effective?

I know this sounds like a rant, and to be honest, it is. But something's got to be done...

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Tax credit shambles, bmenacabdm, 22nd Feb 2008, #1
RE: Tax credit shambles, claire hodgson, 22nd Feb 2008, #2
      RE: Tax credit shambles, Tony Bowman, 22nd Feb 2008, #3
           RE: Tax credit shambles, jj, 23rd Feb 2008, #4
                RE: Tax credit shambles, Steve Johnson, 25th Feb 2008, #5
                     RE: Tax credit shambles, plumduff, 25th Feb 2008, #6
                          RE: Tax credit shambles, JohnA, 26th Feb 2008, #7
                          RE: Tax credit shambles, claire hodgson, 26th Feb 2008, #8
                          RE: Tax credit shambles, Tony Bowman, 26th Feb 2008, #9
                               RE: Tax credit shambles, plumduff, 26th Feb 2008, #10
                                    RE: Tax credit shambles, JohnA, 26th Feb 2008, #11
                                         RE: Tax credit shambles, nevip, 26th Feb 2008, #12
                          RE: Tax credit shambles, pc, 26th Feb 2008, #13
                               RE: Tax credit shambles, bensup, 27th Feb 2008, #14
                               RE: Tax credit shambles, Steve Johnson, 27th Feb 2008, #15
                                    RE: Tax credit shambles, Tony Bowman, 27th Feb 2008, #16
                                         RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities, toxteth, 03rd Mar 2008, #17
                                              RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities, shawn, 05th Mar 2008, #18
                                                   RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities, Tony Bowman, 05th Mar 2008, #19
RE: Tax credit shambles, giuseppina, 28th Jul 2008, #20

bmenacabdm
                              

Advice Session Supervisor, Ballymena Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
21st Jan 2008

RE: Tax credit shambles
Fri 22-Feb-08 08:31 AM

I'm behind u on this one Tony!! I think we get so bogged down with all the work we do on individual cases that we don't have time to address the larger social policy issues as fully as we should. Also, the issues with tax credits are so complex they don't make for great soundbites, so it's really hard to get the media involved. It takes a great deal of expert knowledge to understand what the problems are and it's only us working on cases every day that can fully grasp the nightmare that is tax credits. No ideas are jumping straight to my mind, but I'll give it some thought and if anyone else has ideas for a way forward, I'm on board!

  

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claire hodgson
                              

Solicitor, Askews Solicitors, Thornaby, Stockton on Tees
Member since
17th May 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Fri 22-Feb-08 11:51 AM

i take it you toned down the actual list of words used for the purposes of being polite online?

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Fri 22-Feb-08 12:05 PM

Oh yes! Blue was certainly the colour this morning after talking to some jumped-up official who claimed that HMRC had the right to dictate this organisations policy!

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Sat 23-Feb-08 12:09 AM

oh do tell, tony, i'd love to hear this!...

ok...it's a fact that HMRC just don't play nice. and yes, my experience totally accords with your 'restrained' language, except i've had one appeal! - (won, but arrears still not paid, and HMRC ignorts me.)

as welfs we are used to dealing with a department which is at least susceptible to reason, and where the concept of rights has some sort of recognition, but i rather think the thin end of the wedge has been driven in too hard, so i'm more pessimistic about the collapse and meltdown going on around here...some rightsnet news items this week beggar belief...

we are a smallish grouping, not organised, and as bemencabdm points out, generally under the cosh of targets and demand exceeding resouces, but, frontline. the tax credit shambles is going beyond injustice, into oppression. we have to do something. Count me in.

  

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Steve Johnson
                              

Manager, Walthamstow CAB
Member since
24th Oct 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Mon 25-Feb-08 01:16 PM

The Revenue have been consistently lobbied for improvement since the TC scheme began, although the consequential improvements have been minimal, in my view. Change following political embarrassment/the desire to retain ministers in post have also brought modest changes. I think the most optimistic lever for change will be the courts.

There are surely good possibilities through Judicial Review, namely failure to keep to its own guidance, fettered discretion etc. It would seem that all attempts so far are failing because the Revenue are settling at an early stage in proceedings. Do applicants have to settle JR cases? Are they thereby at detriment if they persist to hearings?

From memory, JRs worked wonders with certain local authorities, when it came to poor practice in homelessness cases, with judges giving directions for change in practices etc. Could it not work equally well with the Revenue?

Steve

  

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plumduff
                              

debt adviser, manchester city council housing department
Member since
14th Nov 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Mon 25-Feb-08 02:40 PM

I wouldnt even know where to start with an appeal.. You write and ask for info on how an o/p accrued and just get a very confusing letter full of dates.. but no actual evidence as to the issues they raise..

How can you challenge anything withour some sort of schedule of evidence..? And the letter they send is usually provided months after you have requested info..

  

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JohnA
                              

Chairman, Low Incomes Tax Reform Group
Member since
18th Mar 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 05:35 AM

It is just as frustrating for those who do some frontline work and sit on the Tax Credits Consulting Group with HMRC.

We are as passionate as you at expressing dissatisfaction with so many parts of the tax credits process.

We do get quite a lot changed and amended before it sees the light of day......yes it really could be worse.

The TCO very often seems like an operation drifting totally out of control, managed by a computer system which cannot be changed.

It also feels as if we are in some parallel universe where we see doom and gloom, yet HMRC only see the statistics and indicators that show everything is going so well.

The key to getting change is focus and evidence. With the assistance of Rightsnet we have some proposals coming to you shortly where we might all work together to achieve change.

More anon.

  

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claire hodgson
                              

Solicitor, Askews Solicitors, Thornaby, Stockton on Tees
Member since
17th May 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 06:53 AM

plumbduff, impressed you get a response - i now warn my clients that i can write as many letters as i like, it's unlikely TCO will write to me (althought they might deign to write to client...)

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 08:22 AM

John, do you have an estimated time scale by which we can expect something more...?

In the meantime - please keep posting up your experiences and for those that have/will post to this thread, would you consider putting together some case studies demonstrating the wide variety of issues we and clients face? Please anonymise them so they can be shared, but include a reference so they can be traced.

Also, for those of you who have done any parliamentary liaison work it would be great if you would post up examples of the types of work that have the most impact?

Tony

  

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plumduff
                              

debt adviser, manchester city council housing department
Member since
14th Nov 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 02:39 PM

Hi Claire,

When I say I get a response, I do (sometimes) but there is usually a delay of months in between asking for info and actually getting it.. Do they not have service standards like the rest of us..?

And the response is not worth the paper its on as it does not give the requested info or evidence to substantiate what they say...

  

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JohnA
                              

Chairman, Low Incomes Tax Reform Group
Member since
18th Mar 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 02:55 PM

Tony

Rightsnet's Shawn is away until next Monday. He might be able to add to my cryptic comments.

As to timing, I would hope that by the new tax credits year that all would be revealed.

  

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nevip
                              

welfare rights adviser, sefton metropolitan borough council, liverpool.
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 03:22 PM

The problem is a systemic one. HMRC is a collection and enforcement agency with extraordinary wide powers. Theirs is not a culture of bestowing beneficence on individuals and helping them but of ensuring our compliance in financing the State and chasing down those who don’t share their view of how that should be done.

Tax credits have to be abolished in their current form and their replacement handed back to the DWP with proper rights of appeal re-instated. It is bad enough that we have to have a system which subsidizes employers in the first place instead of a more even redistribution of wealth which this government has cowardly shied away from but if we have to have it then let this and any other government make sure that they get it right. Proper funding, better staff training and proper control over IT systems.

Unfortunately, this is not going to happen any time soon. This government has taken a huge step to the right under Blair; maybe it will row back under Brown. Who knows? We have seen a going trend in punitive approaches by the DWP out of all proportion to any actual problem, tough and unnecessary talk on immigration, PFI initiatives at huge cost to the public purse, an education system which has championed merit and so called choice with the result that a whole swathe of children have been abandoned (and don’t believe the hype about every child matters), a myriad of criminal justice acts and anti terror laws, eroding centuries of civil liberties with breath taking audacity. It has come to something when socialists now praise the House of Lords as the prime defender of democratic rights. The irony is not lost on many.

Brown is probably going to prove something of a lame duck and after 10 years of New Labour, currently drowning in sleaze (its accusations against the Major administration seeming rather hollow now), it now looks highly possible that the Tories might win the next election. New Labour is bad but the Tories will only make things worse. Still they might overhaul the Tax Credit system. After all it is Brown’s baby. He might be unwilling to abandon it in its still infancy but the Tories might be less sentimental


  

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pc
                              

Asst. Welfare Rights Officer, Cornwall County Council, Truro, Cornwall
Member since
07th Oct 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Tue 26-Feb-08 04:39 PM

I have done one Tax Credit appeal, the submission seemed to consist of little but screen grabs with very little linking them.The issue was about how many hours a week a self employed person worked and we lost. i havn't had any apeals since then and ,like everyone else ,I hardly if ever get replies to letters or consistent and coherent explanations over the 'phone.

  

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bensup
                              

Benefits Supervisor, Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
24th May 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Wed 27-Feb-08 11:40 AM

I write a letter asking for info - if I don't get a reply within 8 weeks I contact our MP's office with a copy of the letter and TC689 and ask them to chase it up for us.

The MP then writes to Richard Summersgill and we USUALLY get a reply to that letter within the next 8 weeks.

The letters often do not make sense and we have to write again asking for a proper explanation but, by this time we have the name of the person who has contacted the MP's office on behalf of Richard Summersgill, so we just hound them!

I do not bother to telephone the tax credit helpline, it can take longer to answer their security questions than to type and send a letter, they also change the required security questions at will and so we don't always have the info they want.

The helpline is a complete waste of time in my experience. It's staffed by untrained people who work to a script and do not have a clue once you try to deviate from that script.

I really hate everything about tax credits

  

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Steve Johnson
                              

Manager, Walthamstow CAB
Member since
24th Oct 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles
Wed 27-Feb-08 11:50 AM

I am interested in John's points concerning the Tax Credits Consulting Group. There is no doubt that the group seems to have been effective in improving certain matters over the years, but the impression I get from talking to various members of the group is that the Revenue are very much in control what the group is allowed to do/direction it can go. I suppose this is to some extent inevitable, given the consulting nature of the set up. I guess the funny little embargo on announcing certain business also comes from the Revenue side, possibly so that the Minister can be told before the masses etc.

John also referred to amassing evidence. The CAB service does alot of that sort of thing, as does CPAG, and no doubt the Low Income Tax Reform Group and others. But are the Revenue sufficiently sensitive to this lever? Witness the relatively minor impact of the Parliamentary Ombudsman's report 'Tax Credits: Getting it Wrong' - that came on the back of a huge amount of evidence arising from complaints to the Ombudsman's office.

Its easy to become apathetic, as this post confirms! I still think the High Court could bring about some change, if only through publicity etc.

Steve

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles
Wed 27-Feb-08 12:29 PM

And its not just apathy - it workload. My heart sinks when I get new tax credit client, especially if there are questions over the entitlement issues, because of the sheer length of time it takes to go through papers and calculations, understand what the TCO are on about, write complaints, etc, etc.

With so many clients knocking at our doors, and the new unified contract (for LSC funded orgs), the pressures on reducing time take for new clients are greater than ever.

Unfortunately, that means a more strigent application of the sufficient benefit test and TC overpayment disputes often don't match up because the chances of a successful outcome are so reduced down to the 'words' I used in the first post.

On a lighter note, I saw a client today with a HB problem. Client speaks 7 languages and has qualifications in medicine and nuclear physics. She was flummoxed by housing benefit (proving that rocket scientists don't have it all!!!). Thank your lucky quasars its not tax credits said I, and resolved her problem with very little ongoing work. I felt much better!

  

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toxteth
                              

families adviser, toxteth citizens advice bureau, liverpool
Member since
20th Jul 2006

RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities
Mon 03-Mar-08 04:36 PM

As Tony Bowman says, we are all so bogged down with our workload and increasingly stringent LSC contract terms that any campaigning on Tax Credits will have to be done outside of office hours, as well as within work time.
I'm in favour of using the courts and the law to assert claimants rights, as it's what I know works most consistently.
I almost got a tax credit appeal heard recently, the Tax Credits Office ducked it again, but only after they'd had to make a concession to the client.
I had a client with an overpayment, because although she had told the TCO by letter that she had split from her partner, they didn't act on the change of circs until she sent in her tax credit renewal form the following tax year. The client did not contact them again when her tax credits payments did not change, because she supposed (correctly) that with her partner gone, and the household income considerably reduced, she would be entitled to at least the same amount of tax credits.
The following tax year, she then got an overpayment demand for about £4,000.
While you cannot appeal about overpayments, you can appeal about entitlement. On the basis that if the TCO tells somebody they've been overpaid then they must have reviewed that person's entitlement at some point, I sent an appeal saying that the TCO had miscalculated this claimant's entitlement. Of course the TCO do not send out a decision letter like the DWP does, so I took the date on the overpayment demand as the date of the decision (giving the claimant one month from that date in which to appeal) and took an educated guess as to which of the clauses listed in section 38 of the Tax Credit Act the decision on entitlement would have been made under: probably 16(1).
I got a standard letter back from the TCO saying "you can't appeal about an overpayment and we are now going to close this file."
I wrote back reiterating that it was an appeal about somebody's entitlement, explained why I thought there was a right of appeal under section 38, and also stating that they should not close the file down just yet because they would be in breach of the Human Rights Act article 6 (right to a fair trial) and we were prepared to apply for a judicial review on the subject.
What the TCO did next was to write back saying they had made a new decision and had backdated the claimant's tax credit claim by three months (which is the longest possible). Since they have made a new decision the appeal lapses.
I could have made a new appeal, but I subsequently discovered the appeal would not have "had legs". If a couple making a joint claim for tax credits split up, the claim is terminated. The TCO can't legally continue to pay them anything until one or other of them makes a new single claim for tax credits. Pity nobody told our claimant this when she first reported a change of circumstances.
The point is, I managed to get half of her overpayment wiped out by exercising her rights under the law. It took a very close, and headache-inducing, study of the Tax Credits Law handbook but what I discovered, worked.
I think rights workers need to pursue a strategy of using tax credit law as much as possible to assert clients rights, backed up by going to judicial review to assert rights under the Human Rights Act. We should perhaps also be looking for a test case to take to the Court of Appeal on the matter of claimants not having appeal rights.
I think of this task as being somewhat like that of the prisoner in The Shawshank redemption, who took 19 years to dig his way out of jail armed only with a geology hammer. Or, since I'm from Liverpool, as like trying to bring down the Canada Dock wall armed only with the same tool. But think how wonderful it will be when we've finally removed enough bricks to bring the entire edifice tumbling down!

  

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shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities
Wed 05-Mar-08 11:23 AM

'latest survey of morale within HMRC shows a continuing and worrying trend ....'

see http://www.litrg.org.uk/news/index.cfm?id=505

survey results @ http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/research/winter07-staff-survey.pdf

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Tax credit shambles: possibilities
Wed 05-Mar-08 12:25 PM

It speaks for itself...

  

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giuseppina
                              

Welfare Rights Caseworker, Brighton Unemployed Centre, Hollingsdean, Brighton
Member since
21st Jan 2008

RE: Tax credit shambles
Mon 28-Jul-08 12:57 PM

Hi Tony
yes I am up to doing something, yet another lobby group can be only marginally effective.

As long as people keep their neck down or deal with their own individual cases, the injustice in the TC system will not be an issue. Lots of people are affected by TC problems, but this is not seen as a general problem.

We need to publicise this issue. We also need to start a public discussion about the fact that there is no right to appeal against recovery of overpayment (I understand that LASA is currently lobbying on this issue).

An idea can be to generate some publicity. If some from us are willing to collaborate, we may put together a number of outrageous stories and send the stuff to sympathetic media as a 'press release', with our contact names and phone numbers. There can be problems with this, however, as it may not be effective, and sometimes journalists can make things worse.

If you want to discuss this or other ideas, phone Josephina 01273 540717.


  

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Top Working Tax Credit & Child Tax Credit topic #2986First topic | Last topic