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Top Disability related benefits topic #4029

Subject: "DLA HRM and ADHD" First topic | Last topic
deni_esda
                              

service manager, East Sussex Disability Association
Member since
02nd Aug 2004

DLA HRM and ADHD
Fri 01-Dec-06 06:54 PM

Hi

Looking for pointers - have caselaw stating ADHA is not a state of arrested development of the brain. Main ref is CDLA/5153/97. Not mention in CPAG or in Bonners's commentary but is is a starred decision. Does anyone know of anything that surpasses it?

Ta

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, paulmmoorhouse, 02nd Dec 2006, #1
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, mike shermer, 04th Dec 2006, #2
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, deni_esda, 04th Dec 2006, #3
      RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, mike shermer, 04th Dec 2006, #4
           RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, paulmmoorhouse, 04th Dec 2006, #5
                RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, brigid c, 08th Dec 2006, #6
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, Nic, 13th Dec 2006, #7
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, nevip, 13th Dec 2006, #8
RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, mike shermer, 13th Dec 2006, #9
      RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, deni_esda, 15th Dec 2006, #10
           RE: DLA HRM and ADHD, brigid c, 15th Dec 2006, #11

paulmmoorhouse
                              

bristol city welfare rights, bristol city council
Member since
03rd Dec 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Sat 02-Dec-06 09:50 AM

Deni,

I'm also very interested in this, I've a client who has a dual diagnosis of ADHD/and Phenylketoneuria, I think that in her case I can argue that the PKU is a state of arrested or incomplete development, but would like to consider the arguments. Is the decision on the OSSC website (their search engine seems to be playing up at the moment)?

Paul

  

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mike shermer
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Kings Lynn & West Norfolk Borough Council, Kings l
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Mon 04-Dec-06 09:38 AM



I think you'd have difficulty in trying to associate ADHD with arrested development - all the research I've seen on the WEB points to chemical changes causing the function of the brain to differ from the norm - also apparently a reasonable number of children with ADHD are said to have above average IQ's........

  

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deni_esda
                              

service manager, East Sussex Disability Association
Member since
02nd Aug 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Mon 04-Dec-06 09:49 AM

Paul

I found the decision in the swopshop bit of this site. The link is @ http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/pdfs/cmmr_upload/cdla/cdla515397.doc. I agree the OSSCSC search engine can be hard work.

Hope that links works - if not I'll happily email it to you as I've downloaded it as a WORD doc, just simply need your address.

With regards my question - does anyone in that wider audience out there know of anything that surpasses this decision OR has anyone succeeded in obtaining HRM DLA for a child at Tribunal on the basis of ADHD alone? Answer to either query would be much appreciated.

Ta

  

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mike shermer
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Kings Lynn & West Norfolk Borough Council, Kings l
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Mon 04-Dec-06 10:00 AM


We have probably helped with over 40 ADHD claims over the past 3 years, and the standard award that we almost always get is Middle rate care and low rate mobility. The latter is based upon the need for supervision, due to complete lack of any sense of danger - and to ensure that the child is not at risk to their self or others.

I cannot see on what grounds one could possibly argue for HRM - the criteria is relatively straight forward - if one cannot walk more than 40 yards or so without having to stop through severe discomfort, then you should be entitled to HRM - in other words it has to be a physical reason, not behavioural.
With ADHD children, it's not that they can't walk, it's just that they won't - well not in the direction that the parent wants them to...

  

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paulmmoorhouse
                              

bristol city welfare rights, bristol city council
Member since
03rd Dec 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Mon 04-Dec-06 03:53 PM

Mike,

I think the issue here is whether children (or indeed adults) with ADHD could qualify under the section 73 (3) 'severe mental impairment' route rather than the Section 73 (1) 'virtually unable'.

Deni,

I've looked at the decision, there seem to me to be two sides to it:

1) Commissioner Howell says there are two separate tests of
'severe impairment of intelligence' and 'sever impairment of social functioning' under section 73 (3) and Reg 12 (5). I think that this is satifactorily dealt with by R/DLA/1/)O1 (Megarry) and CDLA 2315/2001. Indeed, following the reasoning in CDLA 2315/2001, in a case where Mike's decription of a child haivng a'complete lack of any sense of danger' was satisfied, Commissioner Levenson would accept that they did have a 'severe impariment of intelligence'.

2) He also draws a distinction between the medical aetiology of autism which he says (following CDLA/1678/1997) IS a state of 'arrested' or 'incomplete' development and ADHD which he describes as merely a chemical imbalance (my charicature of a much more qualified distinction on his part, but bascially I think you will have to overturn this distinction to get anwhere).

This might be more difficult to get around. But it should be noted that he bases this on medical evidence from the same expert, Doctor McKinley as Commissioner Rice had relied on in CDLA/1678/97. (Incidentally this was also the basis for the decision overturned in Megarry, another Commissioner Rice Decision which followed CDLA./1678/97).

If you examine what Commissioner Rice actually says about Dr McKinley's evidence:

'7. Dr. McKinley explained that, when infantile autism was first described some 50 years ago, it was postulated that the condition might be psychogenic and related to child-rearing practice. This view had now been rejected, and it was presently accepted that the condition had a physical cause, in that it was a disorder of brain development. The biological cause might be discoverable by investigation. For example it might arise out of a chromosome abnormality, or a genetic disorder or a biochemical disorder. However, sometimes no physical cause could be detected, in which event the condition was described as idiopathic. Nevertheless, although, in a particular case, the condition might be idiopathic, Dr. McKinley explained that there would still be a physical origin connected with development of the brain; there would simply be an inability to identify it. In the light of that evidence, I am satisfied that the claimant does suffer from a state of arrested development or incomplete physical development of the brain within regulation 12(5).'

I don't really see that there is that any significant difference between this and the sum of the evidence before Commissioner Howells, from the same doctor which also indicated that the there are 'genetic predispotitions'and 'biochemical disorders' giving rise to ADHD as well. So I'd feel that it could be challenged... But you would have to have the right case, ideally one where the impairment of social functioning WAS siginificant, and perhaps one where there was also at least some impairment of intellectual functioning by reference to IQ testing, and I'd suspect that at tribunal level you'd have real difficulty.

Paul.







  

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brigid c
                              

Tribunal Chair SE region. CAB adviser Basingstoke, SSAC member
Member since
16th Nov 2006

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Fri 08-Dec-06 10:49 PM

I have the pleasure of sitting with a couple of MQPMs who are paediatricians. We've discussed this one and the verdict seems to be that at the moment there is no consensus on the causes of ADHD and whether it actually is a single disorder or various disorders including relationship with the autistic spectrum disorders. Certainly many children with a formal diagnosis of ADHD show at least some characteristics of ASD.

I think it's very hard for young children, even where the alternative route into HRM is a possibility (ie highest rate care in payment, genuine developmental problems of brain), to qualify for HRM on this basis. The behaviour has to be very extreme and seriously disruptive. I last awarded to to an adult with very severe learning disabilities who could only go out if he was accompanied by not one but two people to be on hand to restrain him. It is clear that much more both is and ought to be needed than the general level of supervision approptiate to lower rate mobility.

Brigid C

  

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Nic
                              

Welfare Rights Adviser, CAB Wymondham Norfolk
Member since
08th Jun 2006

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Wed 13-Dec-06 01:05 PM

Hello Deni-esda

It helps to have the child present at the tribunal. Like Mike I see mr/c and lr/m as normal award.
Am interested in your results.

Good luck

  

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nevip
                              

welfare rights adviser, sefton metropolitan borough council, liverpool.
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Wed 13-Dec-06 01:27 PM

Following from Nic. I try and get mum and dad to bring the child (or mum and nan), then get mum to introduce the child to the tribunal as they can then put a human face to the papers but then get the child to wait outside with dad/nan. This saves the child any unwarranted distress. Also agree MR/C and LR/M, usual.

  

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mike shermer
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Kings Lynn & West Norfolk Borough Council, Kings l
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Wed 13-Dec-06 01:33 PM



No matter what the age of the child, I would be very loathe to advise them attending a Tribunal - you have to take into account the possible effect it could have on a young child listening to complete strangers discussing their behavioural problems etc - plus of course a full tribunal can be a daunting experience for adults, and possibly even more traumatic for children.

There is a Tribunal of Comm decision, CDLA/1721/2004 which deals with this subject, Para 48 onwards I believe - the opinion given is that it is not advisable to have children attend tribunals, and they set out the reasoning behind that - it's also verey helpful in other issues such as specific diagnosis etc .......

  

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deni_esda
                              

service manager, East Sussex Disability Association
Member since
02nd Aug 2004

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Fri 15-Dec-06 04:41 PM

Hello all - long posting

Thank you very much for the responses - all very helpful in giving me pointers. I do though hang my head in shame for not being thorough enough in my research before my initial posting eg Bonner's commentary - its all there at page 543....schoolgirl error

The appeal is now over with award of LRM/HRC. No concrete diagnosis of Asbergers Syndrome/ASD which is what I was really hoping to run with to allow HRM in.

Its always a bit of a balancing act - this was an afternoon appeal but the Tribunal were happy to decide it on the papers before our first appeal of the day at 10am. The decision being reinstatement of the previous award of LRM/HRC - night time needs are considerable and behaviour is extreme. HRM ADHD or ASD basis would have been interesting arguments to run and a very good PO was present. However the family circumstances had to be considered and, not surprisingly, the family were happy not to have to attend and LRM/HRC to be awarded given payment had already stopped. An excellent result for them and the practicalities of their circumstances obviously are a tad more important than my musings.

We may revisit HRM on another day as I'm working with the family to see what better support can be offered by the school and psychiatric services and to establish a better diagnostic position than he might/might not have Asbergers/ASD.

1. Arrested state of development and intelligence. Of interest, in discussion the Tribunal were very focussed on CDLA/1678/97, so even if Asbergers/ASD was present they would still have been very fixed on the fact that expert evidence suggests a high threshold test is present with 10% of cases of 'autistics' meeting the threshold for HRM on the arrested state of development of the brain route. How that then fits in with Megarry is puzzling - the commentary seems to say that that 10% figure applies to those with IQs below 55 and Megarry obviuosly widens this out considerably.

2. Arrested state of development and ADHD. When I've got the time I'll trawl through resources like Psychlit and have approached a friendly Child Psych for opinion. If anything useful comes up I will post

3. Restraint and extremely disruptive behaviour. I do take Brigit's point but surely this is a subjective test - not everyone can have 2 carers to intervene as in the example cited. In my example the child exhibits such antisocial behaviour that family and friends avoid contact. Also I find (at least in my local area) that the eligibility criteria for social case/health/SEN has been increasingly heightened in recent years as resources are continually squeezed. Also that Tribunal knowledge hasn't quite caught up with that. Further my understanding of the caselaw was that restraint could be as simple as holding a person's arm to stop them doing something extremely disruptive. In this case, R(DLA)7/02 (p544 Bonner) may well be the sticking point

4. Taking children to Tribunals. Interesting debate. I avoid it - children at tribunals, not debate - at all costs but sometimes practicalities of life dictate otherwise. From anecdotal experience I avoid because: I share reservations about exposing children to such an experience; have found some parents to be of the optimistic view that the Tribunal will see the child, be kind and simply say 'yes - have the benefit you're asking for'; find that the child can be so disruptive it distracts from points being made; and if nothing else do not want repetition of salivia/wotsit coated sticky hands coming anywhere near my favourite work shirt again - a bugger of a stain to get rid off!

Thank you all again

5.

  

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brigid c
                              

Tribunal Chair SE region. CAB adviser Basingstoke, SSAC member
Member since
16th Nov 2006

RE: DLA HRM and ADHD
Fri 15-Dec-06 09:27 PM

What really worries me about this whole HRM for behavioural problems thing is two fold. First, ask any docotr and they will tell you that the concept of "arrested or incomplete development of the brain" is pretty good garbage medically speaking and whoever devised the wording can't have been a developmental biologist. The second is that in the current sate of understanding I'd be very wary of attributing any cogency to a decision based on medical knowledge nearly 10 years out of date. Things have advanced so much very very recently, eg in terms of being able to image brain activity. Whatever may have been generally medical opinion 10 years ago won't be now and will probably have changed a year from now. The "cause" of a specific form of disability is not a question of law but a finding of fact and one which needs to be proved by expert evidence. In that case, previous case-law is only as reliable as the evidence it is based on, and we all know that different medical experts can hold widely differing views.

I hate dealing with AHDH cases, not least because I can't help feeling that the diagnosis so-called is a cop-out in quite a lot of cases. I had 3 the last time I sat (one in a girl, which is highly unusual), and all the members of the Tribunal felt very strongly that only one was a classic ADHD case: one of the others was profoundly emotionally disturbed after a history of violent abuse and neglect, and the third had marked ASD features, as well as oppositional defiant disorder. It is exceptionally hard to deal with these cases when you think the diagnosis is very probably wrong!

Brigid

  

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Top Disability related benefits topic #4029First topic | Last topic