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Top Decision Making and Appeals topic #714

Subject: "Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing" First topic | Last topic
jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Sat 18-Dec-04 12:33 AM

the day before my client's DLA hearing i rang the tribunal clerks to try to arrange for a wheelchair - this was sorted out quickly enough, but the guy i spoke to couldn't authorize a taxi for her!!! and put me onto his 'team leader'. he wanted to interrogate her about why she needed a taxi, and how she normally gets about, and wanted her to get estimates of the expected cost. it really was like talking to a brick wall, and it only amused him when i eventually told him he was being unhelpful and obstructive, so i thanked him politely and advised my client to get a taxi, and ask for a receipt, which is what i usually do anyway.

my client was kept waiting for the wheelchair, but it was eventually brought out, and she and her daughter were left to it, without any help.

in the waiting room i was asked by one of the very nice clerks if the taxi had been authorized in advance. i hadn't been asked this before on a DLA appeal, but in view of the previous day i told her it hadn't, gave her the receipt and asked if there was a problem, indicating that if there was, just to put it in writing, and i'd deal with it later. she assured me there was no problem, and that was the end of that.

i really don't see why my client and her daughter, both of whom were pretty upset by all of this, should be treated in a humiliating way, along the appeal process.

i've no idea why a tribunal clerk team leader would think it is alright to suggest a very sick and disabled person should spend her time making pointless phonecalls in order to provide him with information he already has, and doesn't need from her, but i expect he's been told to keep the expenses budget down.

without the intervention of a representative, i am certain my client, and her daughter would have been adversely affected by their experience, though to what extent is of course unknown. it was already a very difficult thing for my client just to attend the hearing. but if they are going to have such obstacles put in the way of claiming a 7 quid taxi fare, one can imagine some people thinking they have no chance of getting DLA and give up. people generally do not differentiate between the DWP, the Appeals Service and the tribunal very clearly - you would think the Appeals Service could be more aware of it's responsibilities to justice, and how it is seen to be done.


in complete contrast, i cannot fault the tribunal's conduct of the hearing.
our client went from nil DLA to high care and low mob, a considerable improvement.
we think it should be high mobility so there are issues with the decision... to be continued, but as an aside, perhaps, i wondered what people think of this appeals administration business?

jj

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, ruth, 18th Dec 2004, #1
RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, jj, 19th Dec 2004, #2
      RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, Andrew_Fisher, 20th Dec 2004, #3
           RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, shawn, 20th Dec 2004, #4
           RE: - what's the current going price on social justice? says who?, jj, 20th Dec 2004, #6
                consultation ......, shawn, 21st Dec 2004, #12
           RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, jj, 20th Dec 2004, #5
                RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing, Andrew_Fisher, 21st Dec 2004, #7
                     Breakfast?, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #8
                          RE: Breakfast?, mike shermer, 21st Dec 2004, #9
                               RE: Breakfast?, Andrew_Fisher, 21st Dec 2004, #10
                                    Turn on,, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #11
                                         RE: Turn on,, stainsby, 21st Dec 2004, #13
                                              RE: Turn on,, stainsby, 21st Dec 2004, #14
                                              Gentrification of Splott?, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #15
                                                   RE: Gentrification of Splott?, BobKirkpatrick, 21st Dec 2004, #16
                                                        RE: Gentrification of Splott?, mike shermer, 21st Dec 2004, #17
                                                             RE: Gentrification of Splott?, Andrew_Fisher, 21st Dec 2004, #18
                                                                  Fish? who mentioned fish!, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #19
                                                                       RE: Fish? who mentioned fish!, jj, 21st Dec 2004, #20
                                                                            !!!!, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #21
                                                                                 RE: !!!!, jj, 21st Dec 2004, #22
                                                                                      RE: Splott, splott-paul, 21st Dec 2004, #23

ruth
                              

Volunteer adviser, Corby Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
20th Jan 2004

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Sat 18-Dec-04 07:14 PM

The TAS rules on use of taxis are unfathomable. I recently needed to arrange a taxi (for the first time ever) for an 80 year-old client with pneumonconiosis, asthma and a recent heart attack. For various reasons this case had taken nearly 3 years to come to appeal and they were desperate to have it heard, so readily agreed to pay for a taxi. We needed to allow an hour to get from the client's home to the tribunal suite, and another hour back again. When it came to reimbursement there was a long and ridiculous argument over paying the driver's "waiting time". The clerk kept insisting that they cannot pay "waiting time" and that I was expected to send the taxi back, then summon another one for the return journey. The clerk kept insisting that their auditors would not allow "waiting time", and only the fact that her way cost almost double that of using one taxi finally convinced her.

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Sun 19-Dec-04 01:57 AM

Sun 19-Dec-04 06:32 PM by shawn

this was the first time i'd been in the taxi arranging business too, and i probably wouldn't have done it if i hadn't needed to arrange the wheelchair, also a first. i'm glad i did it, to see the problems. mostly people will go by car if they have someone to take them. they don't go to the trouble of taking taxis unless they have no other means, it's not a case of 'APPELLANTS JOYRIDING IN TAXIS AT PUBLIC EXPENSE!

if appeals service auditors, or is that DWP? auditors have a problem with reasonable AND economical expenses there must be a lot of explaining owed.


i bought george bush and tony blair joke-books today to give as christmas presents...

any ideas why open discussion of the rightsnet funding issues was closed so quickly?

jj

  

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Andrew_Fisher
                              

Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Mon 20-Dec-04 12:37 PM

Why are taxis so hard - have you ever tried to do one for a PCA - they WILL NOT authorise it in advance which is worse - it's up to the doctor who does the examination to decide whether you needed it or not so client doesn't know if they're allowed.

I always had to send all of ym DLA clients 40 miles to London for appeals and 25-50% needed taxis. It was a nightmare. We had to get prior authorisation by GPs who hated doing it and the no waiting time thing is an absolute joke - you had to get quotes for both journeys at twice the cost but the taxi drivers just waited outside. Who's going to drive 40 miles into central London drive back and then an hour later drive in again - you couldn't do it let alone want to.

And why has your post been altered jj?

  

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shawn
                              

Charter member

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Mon 20-Dec-04 02:07 PM

re altered post ... nothing sinister ... there was just a big long gap after jj had finished the posting .........

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: - what's the current going price on social justice? says who?
Mon 20-Dec-04 05:29 PM

strange as it may seem, i edited my own post before sending it, and forgot to delete the white space : ) doh!

constitutional crisis or not, i thought my remarks about the foolishness of the home secretary using words like 'very strident' or 'simply wrong'in light of what lord bingham had said about democratic functions of the judiciary, were probably misplaced in a taxi thread, and besides, 'foolish' may have understated it.

now i feel very bad about giving shawn more work to do, when it's a miracle what he and ken have achieved so far. i was astounded to discover that rightsnet is only two people, and am incredulous that the value and creative potential of this site and network, particularly in the much needed developmental role of human rights law, has not been properly recognized by funders, particularly the Legal Services Commission. but i shouldn't be surprised, for how are they to judge? maybe that's why you get questions like 'How much is Rightsnet Worth?', which is the wrong question.

nothing sinister going on in this instance, but it seems there are wider 'trust' issues, and while the question of whether the ex-Home Secretary's blanket assertion that he is satisfied that the ID card bills satisfies human rights requirements, whilst declining to make public the attorney general's advice may shortly come to a (more)heads may roll, i think we have some issues within our competence here.

the open topic thread on the rightsnet funding issue has been locked, and a post from Tony Bowman on Friday night asking about funding was removed, so has Andy Pennington's response. it appears that open discussion is not wanted, and that makes me feel wary.

I would like to ask more about the consultation process. I don't like providing feedback to closed and controlling questions (will you/won't you subscribe), because they can be very manipulative.
rightsnet has earned itself a great deal of credibility, but interference by the LSC threatens it, in my opinion.

There are many arguments why this sight should remain free, and receive developmental funding, but it's very easy to spoil the ship for a 7 quid taxi fare, and for some reason we're being shut up.

any chance of a link to the Access to Justice Act, Shawn, now might be a good time?

jj


  

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shawn
                              

Charter member

consultation ......
Tue 21-Dec-04 10:38 AM

jj .. hopefully to reassure you ...

1. we're inviting responses to the consultation on charging for access to certain rightsnet services by email.

we do however want as many people as possible to respond so, in addition to advertising it in the news area and in our email newsletter, we also posted brief info and a link to the news story in the discussion forum - as another way of letting as many people know as possible, not as a means of conducting the consultation through the discussion forum ... hence the forum posting is locked.

2. re tony and andy's postings -


  • ... andy's was a response to the consultation, though submitted in the forum rather than by email, so we copied the feedback down and have added it to the responses we have received from others.

    we emailed andy to let him know.

  • tony sought clarification on a couple of questions, and i'm happy to reproduce them here with our responses -

    Q? - Are other funding methods being sought? Are other funding methods under serious consideration at the moment?

    A - Absolutely

    Q? - What are the alternatives if LASA does NOT introduce the subscription fee? If there are no alternatives, what does the future hold for Rightsnet in the eyes of LASA?

    A - If other funding can not be secured, there will be a question mark over the continuation of the service.


    we emailed tony to let him know.


3. we are part-funded by the lsc, but are independent of them ... they are not involved at all in the consultation with users.

--------------


we'll be considering and responding to everyone's feedback in the new year - rather than responding to individual comments at this stage - and, of course, will publish our conclusions to the site then.

best wishes - shawn

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Mon 20-Dec-04 04:29 PM

i think 'why are taxis so hard' is a very good question. my client's contact with the appeals service was within the process of exercising her right of appeal against the refusal of DLA, for which she was about to be cross-examined by a tribunal of 3 people, a lawyer, a doctor and a disability expert, for a potential entitlement of £99.85 a week. the tribunal's probing questions were well informed by their relevance to the case, whilst at the same time, the tribunal was kind and solicitous towards my client.

in contrast the Appeals Service, to save 7 quid, was unhelpful and obstructive, aside from being ludicrous in wanting to know why she needed a taxi to the venue, when i'd just arranged a wheelchair because she couldn't walk the distance from the dropping off point to the foyer of the appeals office.

as an ex-civil servant myself, i'm pretty sure it was all about the expenses budget - it's a bit 'takes one to know one' if you know what i mean, but it's difficult for a 'normal person' to make any sense of it. this is the kind of thing that happens when a person is given a job priority that isn't put in meaningful context, and is carried out in a way which over-rides far greater priorities, to the exclusion of reason, commonsense and humanity.

and isn't it pretty shameful if an appellant needs a representative for their dealings with tribunal clerks, in order to prevent human rights abuses? : ) i wonder how lord falconer would explain it?

jj


  

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Andrew_Fisher
                              

Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Re: The Appeals Service - now here's a thing
Tue 21-Dec-04 08:16 AM

Clerks paid a pittance all told they're going to be _maybe_ made redundant when the Pension Service centre in Manchester reopens as a national centre for the Appeals Service no-one's sure if they're going to be actually made redundant locally but there will be no redundancies in the Manchester centre and the centre will take on no new staff and by the way we'll keep on with visits from Asda and the cv writing courses we mentioned last week so what do you think they're all going to be like without any Appeals Service skills used to dealing with the 60+ age group entirely with most local venues shut so appeals can be held in _courts_ by _judges_ (but at least it means you can get a cup of tea while you're waiting) whilst lowly welfare rights advisers struggle valiantly to get some kind of dignity for their clients thanking the stars for the use of an underfunded understaffed overburdened with talent website (we love you Shawn and Ken), and if you ask me, the same thing goes for Christmas!

Or, as Allen Ginsberg once said:

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical
naked, dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn looking for an
angry fix, angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly connection to
the starry dynamo in the machinery of night,

who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat up smoking in the
supernatural darkness of cold-water flats floating across the tops of cities
contemplating jazz,

who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and saw Mohammedan angels
staggering on tenement roofs illuminated,

who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes hallucinating Arkansas
and Blake-light tragedy among the scholars of war,

who were expelled from the academies for crazy & publishing obscene odes on the
windows of the skull,

who cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burning their money in wastebaskets
and listening to the Terror through the wall,

who got busted in their pubic beards returning through Laredo with a belt of
marijuana for New York,

who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in Paradise Alley, death, or
purgatoried their torsos night after night,

with dreams, and drugs, with waking nightmares, alcohol and cock and endless
balls,

incomparable blind streets of shuddering cloud and lightning in the mind leaping
toward poles of Canada & Paterson, illuminating all the motionless world of Time
in between

Peyote solidities of halls, backyard green tree cemetery dawns, wine drunkenness
over the rooftops, storefront boroughs of teahead joyride neon blinking traffic
light, sun and moon and tree vibrations in the roaring winter dusks of Brooklyn,
ashcan rantings and kind king light of mind,

who chained themselves to subways for the endless ride from Battery to holy
Bronx on benzedrine until the noise of wheels and children brought them down
shuddering mouth-wracked and battered bleak of brain all drained of brilliance
in the drear light of Zoo,

who sank all night in the submarine light of Bickford's, floated out and sat
through the stale beer afternooon in desolate Fugazzi's, listening to the crack
of doom on the hydrogen jukebox,

who talked continuously seventy hours from park to pad to bar to Bellevue to
museum to the Brooklyn Bridge,

a lost battalion of platonic conversationalists jumping down the stoops off fire
escapes off windowsills off Empire State out of the moon,

yacketayakking screaming vomiting whispering facts and memories and anecdotes
and eyeball kicks and shocks of hospitals and jails and wars,"

etcetera, etcetera ...


  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

Breakfast?
Tue 21-Dec-04 08:24 AM

magic mushroom omlette?

Blahdy hell man - you're worse than "Rambling Sid" Shermer from the Fens!!!

  

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mike shermer
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Kings Lynn & West Norfolk Borough Council, Kings l
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Breakfast?
Tue 21-Dec-04 08:57 AM


Well.........Andrew's offering from Mssr Ginsberg does make my quotes seem a little inconsequential - it also shows his age - lots of younger WR workers around the country asking who the **** is Allen Ginsberg - you can always spot the wild child generation from the sixties - social conscience - outspoken - bolshi even.........ah the joys of a misspent youth



  

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Andrew_Fisher
                              

Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Breakfast?
Tue 21-Dec-04 09:00 AM

And, to maybe move closer to the nub of all this, me and Mike share the same regional news programmes...

  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

Turn on,
Tue 21-Dec-04 09:06 AM

Tune in, Drop out - 'though with advancing age (I'm a 1950's child Mike) it's WHAT drops out I'm worried about ...

OK - Christmas quiz time; which poem/ poet is this from?

"Ill fares the land, to hasten ills a prey
Where wealth accumulates and men decay" ...

Winner gets a chip supper in Caroline Street (Chip Alley in Kairdiv), you have to pay your own transport costs though ...

  

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stainsby
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Gallions Housing Association, Thamesmead SE London
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Turn on,
Tue 21-Dec-04 10:47 AM

Well if you are over 50 like I am you can get a National Express pass giving a third off the fare.

You can then have a good moan about how much longer the time table is these days, how it used to be quicker to hitch etc

But at least its good to see chip shop alley is still there and has not bee replaced by a terrace of wine bars catering from the bay overpspill....or are such wine bars now in gentrified Splott?

  

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stainsby
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Gallions Housing Association, Thamesmead SE London
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Turn on,
Tue 21-Dec-04 10:51 AM

Oh and by the way I had no trouble claiming car mileage for a 560 mile round trip, plus maximum loss of earnings when I acted as a rep for my dad.

The bill came to about £130.

  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

Gentrification of Splott?
Tue 21-Dec-04 10:57 AM

You clearly know your Cardiff - the old Brains Brewery has gone, to be replaced by the "Brewery Quarter" - which is basically cafes, wine bars, etc. The Albert has gone too (now the Yard, OK ya), but the Wyndham Arcade side of Chip Street remains steadfastly the same - wall to wall chip wrappers and vomit most Saturday nights!
Kiwis, in the Wyndham Arcade, is still going strong too - still running the "grab a granny/ grandad" nights. Mill Lane is now the Cafe Quarter, they are building the Water Quarter down by the new County Hall, and top of High Street is now the Castle Quarter. Run out of quarters now!
"Gentrified Splott" has no wine bars, the Royal Oak still has blues and rock nights and a gym above for the boxers, and Brains Dark is still on draft...

  

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BobKirkpatrick
                              

Welfare Benefits adviser, Notting Hill Housing Trust, London
Member since
18th Feb 2004

RE: Gentrification of Splott?
Tue 21-Dec-04 11:27 AM

The answer to the question is The Deserted Village by Oliver Goldsmith.

Ill Fares the Land is also a Belgian heavy metal band, although they may no longer be together.

I don't want to go all the way to Cardiff for a fish supper, so please donate my plaice and chips to the nearest homeless person.

  

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mike shermer
                              

Welfare Benefits Officer, Kings Lynn & West Norfolk Borough Council, Kings l
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Gentrification of Splott?
Tue 21-Dec-04 11:46 AM


Best offer Paul's likely to get ..............

  

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Andrew_Fisher
                              

Welfare Rights Adviser, Stevenage Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
23rd Jan 2004

RE: Gentrification of Splott?
Tue 21-Dec-04 11:54 AM

Come on jj it's all your fault we got to Belgian heavy metal in a taxi (and that has to be the most sublime cultural reference ever aired on Rightsnet): you're gonna have to finish this.

  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

Fish? who mentioned fish!
Tue 21-Dec-04 12:53 PM

A Caroline Street chip supper contains no fish!
It's a polystyrene container of chips with curry sauce on top! If you are REALLY posh, which leaves me out - being a boy from Mangotsfield via Barnet via Holt (the Wiltshire variant, NOT Norfolk Mike!) and ending up in Splo' - you have a few scraps of chicken off the bone on top of that.
Anyway, you are absolutely right with Goldsmith and I will give the next "Big Issue Cymru" vendor I see a couple of quid in your name - that'll REALLY confuse him/her!
Now what's all this about a Rightsnet "awayday" trip to Belgium in a taxi? Put me down for a place! and with reference to Rambling Sid's reference to "best offers" - as long as they have a pulse nowadays mate ...
And the next poetry question is:
"My doggie don't wear glasses, so they're lying when they say
A dog looks like his owner, aren't they? .."
Author?

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: Fish? who mentioned fish!
Tue 21-Dec-04 01:45 PM

LOL!

hey you don't think i'm paranoid, do ya? : )

i applied for a job in splott a few years ago, but i was the second choice, so no fish supper with paul for me.

happy xmas all.

  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

!!!!
Tue 21-Dec-04 01:47 PM

There was a JOB! in Splott? !!

  

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jj
                              

welfare rights adviser, saltley & nechells law centre birmingham
Member since
21st Jan 2004

RE: !!!!
Tue 21-Dec-04 03:41 PM

a job in splott. yes. at the law centre there.

and if i'd been successful i'd have relocated and everything, just for the joy of being in a place called splott. : )

but i was a reject. : (

jj

  

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splott-paul
                              

Welfare Rights Officer, Welfare Rights Unit - Cardiff County Council
Member since
05th Feb 2004

RE: Splott
Tue 21-Dec-04 03:46 PM

Then you may be interested in knowing that the Cardiff Law Centre has had its' (un?)-fair share of funding problems in the last 12 months+; I think - and hope I'm not wrong - that they have (sadly) lost a number of posts, including those for immigration work via LSC. You may have had a narrow squeak butti!

  

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Top Decision Making and Appeals topic #714First topic | Last topic