I wonder if somebody could clarify this issue further :
In the amended regulations (see news item today) it states that "Earnings shall not include any payment in respect of expenses arising out of the claimant's participation in a service user group"

As far as I remember there was issue that these service users could not be classed as volunteers so they could not even be reimbursed their travel and meal expenses.
Does this Reg only adressess those and other clearly identified expenses or would it be possible that also flat fees could be re imbursed?

Service users are still different to volunteers in this context.

I think we are only dealing here with expenses which would in MP's terms be "wholly, exclusively and necessarily" incurred in performing the user function. Fees would not be included.

There is also an issue with the expenses in HMRC terms.Will HMRC agree that employers of users need not keep records of these expenses and if they do not precisely meet all the tax tests are they going to turn a blind eye from a tax perspective for the user (for example, round sum allowances)?

Rumour has it they are thinking about it.

Subject to John A's point about what HMRC do, the amendment clearly separates volunteers' expenses, which have to be "wholly, exclusively and necessarily" and payments of expenses to someone participating in a service user group.

I read this as meaning that payments to SU group members have to be recognisably 'expenses' but such expenses don't have to be accounted for as strictly as volunteers' expenses. For instance if they received a flat rate of £10 for attending meetings then, provided this figure could be justified as reflecting average or typical expenses, it could be disregarded without any individual accounting being required.

On the other hand if they received an hourly rate, or a disporportionate lump sum, these couildn't be described as expenses.

Interested in any other views however.

Richard Atkinson

Belatedly I spotted this and because of my involvement in these benefit changes can advise.

Reimbursed expenses for paid participation are ignored if the public authority (that is paying service users for involvement/participation) is required by law to involve service users. DWP officials have said that the reimbursed expenses that are ignored include travel costs, the costs of a replacement carer or child care or a personal assistant, support worker or facilitator. Equally notional earnings may not be applied.

This legislation does not apply to voluntary participation. Expenses for volunteering are ignored anyhow.

Unfortunately DWP made a muck up of the legislation and inadvertently left out involvement in NHS research and all charities and voluntary orgs and others where involvement is undertaken as a result of DH Guidance or good practice (but not the law).

A recent debate in the House of Lords on this can be found at
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200910/ldhansrd/text/91201-0005.htm