I did my first appeal here in North Wales this week. My colleagues had warned me about the way the panel conduct the hearings, but the experience was something unbelievable. I have done lots of tribunals in Derbyshire and Leicestershire but there has been a gap of about 5 years. The appeal was a DLA refusal of both components. I believed that my client should qualify for the middle care and high mobility.

Apparently the DWP hardly ever send Presenting Officers & it was soon obvious why not. They do not like representatives to say anything. They grilled my client for over 45 minutes. They took asked him every question on a full DLA form, covering all aspects from criteria for high care to low mobility. Most of the questions had plenty of evidence already but they started from scratch. Part of my client's problems were physical a & part mental health issues. The chair grilled him over his suicidal thoughts, leaving him in tears and shaking. Admittedly he did offer a break, but my client just wanted to get it over with by then. He got low care & no mobility.

The way he was treated was barbaric. I can understand if things have changed so that tribunals are more inquisitory rather than adversarial. But this was like the Spanish inquisition!

Am I way off beam here, or is this very unusual? Is this happening in other parts of Wales, in England and Scotland? I want to gather evidence from other areas in order to challenge what is happening here in North Wales. Thanks.

Sounds pretty normal to me. I can't understand why they still seem to say 'don't bother with revision go straight for appeal' on training courses. I'll do anything I can to keep clients out of that room.

Yep, happens in Southend and Basildon too. I think it depends on the panel though....there is one Chairman in particular down here who is downright malicious.

My experience (most recently in Warrington) is a bit different. The appeals there are listed half an hour apart and tend to overrun if too many appellants actually turn up (!) so the chairs prefer to get through them fairly quickly. For that reason, they don't question appellants for any longer than they have to.
The only time they question them at length is when there is little evidence on paper (not often with me, because I make sure I submit everything I possibly can to support the appeal before the hearing) or when there are gaps in the information. In the second instance, I think this is to make sure the claimant has an opportunity to plug the gaps and have as fair a hearing as possible.
I've only once felt the need to complain about a chair's conduct in two-and-a-half years. (This particular chair was noted for being abrupt and in this case, he behaved very insensitively to a client who was so mentally ill she twice tried to run out of the building before the hearing started. Result of chair's conduct, the client was unable to speak and her nephews had to give evidence for her.)

Thanks for your posting.

I have been representing for many years now and my confidence is at an all time low due to the approach adopted by the local venues here in Stratford, East Ham and Enfield. It is the same tribunal members day in day out, with complete control of the tribunal from the start. Some chairs will not allow me to interrupt at all and will suggest I make my comments at the end by which time it is a fruitless and token exercise. Others have made up their minds on a case as we get into the room, so any new issues are raised are quickly brushed aside. Clear cut cases have been lost and then successfully taken at Commissioners level. The main issue is adversarial Vs. Inquisitorial. As I understand it, tribunals have a duty to remain inquisitorial, but they have started to adopt an adversarial approach, which is more of a cross-examination approach rather than enquiring about issues. The lay members are not much help either and most of my cases are now ending up at the Commissioners where there is a much more sympathetic reponse. The battle goes on, and it really is an uphill struggle.

Hope this helps.

Is there a Tribunal Users Group that could raise these issues? Might be worth a try...

They have them in Sutton, the last one 19/04/2004,next one in july contact person is Finola Newman customer service manager

I am the presenting officer for Wales and am most concerned to read your posting. I don't get to north Wales tribunals very often simply because of the relatively small number of appeals held there, in comparison to the larger venues in Swansea and Cardiff. However, if you do ever feel that one of your cases would benefit from the attendance of a presenting officer PLEASE get in touch with me and I will try to be there.

In response to your specific concerns, there are regular user group meetings held in the area, usually in Wrexham. I've just checked with The Appeals Service and the next meeting will be held on 26/05/04.

Hope this helps.

Hi,

I have two angles on this.

1) There is an increasing trend in DLA/AA type appeals across the country for reps. to be marginalised in favour of direct and prolonged questioning of the client. No problem with this in theory but the practice involves many Chairs allowing questioning which ranges over all components without bothering to find out from the rep. what is at issue at the outset and, in many cases, active discouragement of the participation of the rep. There is something faimtly ludicrous about a rep. reciting facts from a client at a tribunal on the face of it but the reality is that a rep. can give focus and order to the relevant facts (far more than most tribunals in my experience). Nothing wrong with the client being questioned after that I would say.

My gut feeling is that the lead on this approach comes from Regional Chairs somewhat clumsily seeking to ensure a consistency of approach between clients who are represented and those who are not. There is also an element of recruitment without adequate training which leads Chairs to slavishly follow such guidance because they have not been able to sit back reflect that the correct approach would be to gear each hearing around the needs of all concerned rather than just TAS.

2) As an ex. North Wales rep. I was heartened to sense the disillusion in your post. If your experience of tribunals has mostly been positive then that is most unusual. It's something that soon changes once you live/work outside of the few areas that do have such a perspective. I will never forget my years as a rep. in North Wales. Certainly toughened me up.

My first tribunal posed the hardest dilemma I ever had to deal with - when the Chairs' glass eye falls out and rolls across the table what is the correct etiquette? Ignore? Roll it back? Stare at it? Laugh? Offer it back in a handkerchief?

As someone has posted elsewhere, they have "their own way of doing things" and you need to be extremely strong to overcome that.

Good luck.