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Top Income Support & Jobseeker's Allowance topic #6636

Subject: "Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit post ..." First topic | Last topic
kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit post ...
Tue 07-Jul-09 09:23 AM

Wondering if anyone has come acrosss this issue....

If you have someone put in a claim for housing costs after the 05/01/2009 but they dont receive a relevant benefit at the time of claim would the old rules (39 weeks, £100,000 cap) still apply to them.

For example they put in a claim for Carers Allowance (not a relevant benefit) on the 01/02/09 and they have some other income say a private Pension working out at £50 per week, they apply for Income Support and wont be paid any Income Support until their SMI kicks in. So their applicable amount wont be high enough to receive IS until they pass the waiting period.

In that situation is someone still going to come under the old rules or will the new rules apply??

  

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Replies to this topic
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., ariadne2, 04th Feb 2009, #1
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., kev3kev3, 05th Feb 2009, #2
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., shawn, 05th Feb 2009, #3
      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., kev3kev3, 05th Feb 2009, #4
           RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., BrianSmith, 05th Feb 2009, #5
                RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Derek, 05th Feb 2009, #6
                     RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Heather, 11th Feb 2009, #7
                          RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Derek, 12th Feb 2009, #8
                               RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Heather, 12th Feb 2009, #9
                                    RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 25th Feb 2009, #10
                                         RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., kev3kev3, 26th Feb 2009, #11
                                         RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., ariadne2, 26th Feb 2009, #12
                                              RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., ariadne2, 26th Feb 2009, #13
                                                   RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Damian, 02nd Mar 2009, #14
                                                        RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 02nd Mar 2009, #15
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., shawn, 09th Mar 2009, #16
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Damian, 27th Apr 2009, #17
                                                                  RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 27th Apr 2009, #18
                                                                       RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., iut044, 26th May 2009, #19
                                                                            RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 01st Jun 2009, #20
                                                                                 RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 15th Jun 2009, #21
                                                                                      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., bensup, 15th Jun 2009, #22
                                                                                      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 15th Jun 2009, #23
                                                                                      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 15th Jun 2009, #24
                                                                                      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., JoanW, 22nd Jun 2009, #25
                                                                                           RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 23rd Jun 2009, #26
                                                                                                RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 23rd Jun 2009, #27
                                                                                                     RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., kev3kev3, 30th Jun 2009, #28
                                                                                                     RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suec, 30th Jun 2009, #29
                                                                                                          RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., Dan_manville, 30th Jun 2009, #30
                                                                                                               RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 01st Jul 2009, #31
                                                                                                                    RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., kev3kev3, 01st Jul 2009, #32
                                                                                                                    RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suec, 01st Jul 2009, #33
                                                                                                                    RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 01st Jul 2009, #34
                                                                                                                         RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suec, 01st Jul 2009, #35
                                                                                                                              RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., iut044, 01st Jul 2009, #36
                                                                                                                                   RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 02nd Jul 2009, #37
                                                                                                                                        RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., nevip, 02nd Jul 2009, #38
                                                                                                                                             RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 02nd Jul 2009, #39
                                                                                                                                                  RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., iut044, 02nd Jul 2009, #40
                                                                                                                                                  RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., iut044, 03rd Jul 2009, #41
                                                                                                                                                  RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., Damian, 03rd Jul 2009, #42
                                                                                                                                                       RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 03rd Jul 2009, #43
                                                                                                                                                            RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., iut044, 03rd Jul 2009, #44
                                                                                                                                                                 RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 03rd Jul 2009, #45
                                                                                                                                                                      RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., lincolncab, 14th Jul 2009, #56
                                                                                                                    RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suec, 25th Nov 2009, #77
                                                                                                                         RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...., suelees, 25th Nov 2009, #78
                                                                                                     RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 09th Jul 2009, #52
                                         RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., alison1w, 07th Jul 2009, #48
                                              RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 09th Jul 2009, #49
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 06th Jul 2009, #46
      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., alison1w, 10th Jul 2009, #53
           RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 10th Jul 2009, #54
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 09th Jul 2009, #50
RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suelees, 09th Jul 2009, #51
      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Dan_manville, 13th Jul 2009, #55
           RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 14th Jul 2009, #57
                RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 15th Jul 2009, #58
                     RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 21st Jul 2009, #59
                          RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 27th Jul 2009, #60
                               RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 27th Jul 2009, #61
                                    RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 27th Jul 2009, #62
                                         RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 28th Jul 2009, #63
                                              RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 29th Jul 2009, #64
                                                   RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., suec, 30th Jul 2009, #65
                                                        RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 30th Jul 2009, #66
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Tony Bowman, 30th Jul 2009, #67
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 30th Jul 2009, #68
                                                                  RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Tony Bowman, 30th Jul 2009, #69
                                                                       RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 30th Jul 2009, #70
                                                                            RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Tony Bowman, 30th Jul 2009, #71
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., LesleyS, 19th Aug 2009, #72
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., lincolncab, 19th Aug 2009, #73
                                                                  RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., LesleyS, 19th Aug 2009, #74
                                                             RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., iut044, 04th Nov 2009, #75
                                                                  RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Big Lee, 25th Nov 2009, #76
                                                                       RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Ember, 08th Dec 2009, #79
                                                                       RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Robbie Spence, 10th Dec 2009, #80
                                                                            RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Big Lee, 10th Dec 2009, #81
                                                                                 RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., Ember, 11th Dec 2009, #82
                                                                                      RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p..., shawn, 15th Dec 2009, #83

ariadne2
                              

Welfare lawyer and social policy collator, Basingstoke CAB
Member since
13th Mar 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 04-Feb-09 03:48 PM

The new rules will apply. They apply to everyone who is waiting for housing costs as at 5.1.2009, and any period already served counts towards the 13 weeks.

  

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kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 05-Feb-09 08:09 AM

The reason I ask is because I recently attended a training course with CPAG and the trainer advised that it would be old rules and that he has checked this with an official.

Also CPAG's specialist advice line seems to intepret the regs as saying the old rules would apply.

Anyone else think this is correct?

  

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shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 05-Feb-09 09:13 AM

dwp guidance - DMG Memo 01/09 - gives this example -

'Doug has been in receipt of IB since 20.10.08, he has a £110,000 mortgage taken out in 2004. Until Doug qualifies for housing costs his IB exceeds his IS requirements. Although on 4.1.09 Doug is not in receipt of housing costs because he had not yet completed the qualifying period his IB is not a relevant benefit. The DM decides that the new rules do not apply and Doug will have to reclaim IS in July 2009 when he satisfies the 39 week qualifying period.'
see rightsnet news @ New housing costs rules from January 2009: New DWP guidance (6 January 2009)

  

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kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 05-Feb-09 09:18 AM

Hi Shawn,

I have read the DWP guidance but it does not address the question that I have posed.

Your reply talks about a pre 05/01/09 example.

I am trying to find out about a post 05/01/09 claim.

Thanks

  

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BrianSmith
                              

Welfare rights officer, northumberland nhs care trust
Member since
06th Oct 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 05-Feb-09 10:12 AM

As I understand it (and I'm happy to be corrected), if they had put in a protective claim for IS on or after 05/01/05 this would have kicked off a 13 week waiting period under the new rules. The IS claim would have been nilled initially, DWP would have sent out an MI12 form re the mortgage, and the IS would have come into payment after the 13 weeks. The protective claim is necessary in this case, unlike the old incapacity for work situation where the waiting period for ISMI began at the start of the period of incapacity, even if no IS claim had been made.

  

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Derek
                              

CAB Adviser, Esher CAB
Member since
09th Mar 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 05-Feb-09 03:54 PM

I hesitate to disagree with ariadne, but I don't think she's entirely correct.

Yes, any claim made after 5.1.09 comes under the new rules. But not all people who claimed before 5.1.09 and are in the waiting period will do so. For example, anyone who has claimed IS or IBJSA before 5.1.09 & is not in receipt of any payment until ISMI kicks in (i.e. after 5.1.09) will still come under the old rules

So if a single person who was self-employed (so couldn't claim CBJSA) also had another small income above £60.50 p wk - eg from a lodger or small early private pension - becomes unemployed & claims IBJSA before 5.1.09 they have to wait 39 weeks. Grossly unfair in my opinion, as they would come under new rules if the other income had been below £60.50.

  

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Heather
                              

Co ordinator, Welfare Benefits Unit, York
Member since
03rd Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 11-Feb-09 03:14 PM

So just bringing this issue to the surface again as we have a case who has to wait until July for help with mortgage ( 39 wks under old rules coz on incap ben and no claim as yet for IS) . Could he stop his claim and then re claim IS now in order to start a 13 week period ticking to get mortgage help before July?

  

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Derek
                              

CAB Adviser, Esher CAB
Member since
09th Mar 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 12-Feb-09 08:19 AM

I asked Mike Shermer's DWP contact this question, but got no answer despite sending a follow-up.

But in your case, you say "no claim as yet for IS" which seems to imply it hasn't been claimed, rather than that other income means the claim has resulted in nil payment till housing costs kick in. If no claim has been made, then I don't see why one shouldn't be submitted now.

  

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Heather
                              

Co ordinator, Welfare Benefits Unit, York
Member since
03rd Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 12-Feb-09 09:38 AM

Sorry, yes the claim has been made but I should have said no entitlement yet to IS until 39 weeks has passed and mortgage kicks in.
Just found an example in DMG memo 01/09 example 3 Fiona. States IB not a relevant benefit so will have to wait the full 39 weeks. How unfair is that! Has anyone tried breaking the claim of IS in order to start a new 13 week period?

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 25-Feb-09 10:29 AM

I'm just had a clienton IB who has to wait 39 weeks until July. I'm also wondering if she could break her IB claim, claim IS as lone parent then go back on IB within linking period.

Anyone done this?

Sue

  

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kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 26-Feb-09 02:04 PM

Just want to bring this topic to the surface again based on what I have just read in CPAG' latest Welfare Rights Bulletin. It talks about in what circumstances the new 13 week waiting period and £200,000 limit applies. It states:

"If the claimaint is making a completley new claim on or after 5 January, and is 'entitled' to a 'relevent benefit'. The policy intent is that this does not include claimants not actually entitled to benefit, even if they would be when housing costs are included."

This was my original query when I started this topic, any opinions?

  

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ariadne2
                              

Welfare lawyer and social policy collator, Basingstoke CAB
Member since
13th Mar 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 26-Feb-09 08:13 PM

I still think that you cannot read the alterations to the regualtions to disregard the deeming provisions about people who are treated as entitled - there is nothing I have seen in the alterations that repeals that provision. But there does have to be a claim as the excess capital/income has to be the ONLY reason why there is no current entitlemnt.

DWP guidance is not law. Policy intentions aren't law. Statues, regulations and decisions of the courts are law. Find me a bit of law that says I'm wrong and I might believe it. For heavens sake, they get things wrong, don't they?

  

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ariadne2
                              

Welfare lawyer and social policy collator, Basingstoke CAB
Member since
13th Mar 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 26-Feb-09 08:17 PM

Here's some law: Schedule 3 of the Income Support Regulations, paragraph 14(4). Was this amended or disapplied when the new rules were brought in?

  

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Damian
                              

WRO(Health), Salford WRS
Member since
23rd May 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 02-Mar-09 03:18 PM

It was ammended ..... and it also wasn't. It seems a quirky way of doing it but it all come down to reg 8 of SI 2008/3195 which says that part 3 of those regs, which amend the waiting period, only applies to people who are on a relevant benefit which is defined in reg 1 as including ESA, IS & JSA. It does not include IB or SSP. This seems particularly bonkers way of doing it but I emailed them to ask if this was right and they confirmed that it is. This means there are two versions of various para in sched 3 depending on whether you fit into the relevant benefit group but all with the same para number etc. I don't know how they will write this all up in the blue books!

It also produces the very silly outcome that for some people who are getting SSP there will be an incentive to chuck in their job to get the housing costs earlier!

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 02-Mar-09 03:51 PM

I've asked for counsel's opinion on a challenge

  

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shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 09-Mar-09 12:28 PM

ssac consultation launched today on new rules .. and on draft regs designed to correct some 'anomalies' ..

see rightsnet news New housing costs rules from January 2009: Social Security Advisory Committee launches consultation

  

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Damian
                              

WRO(Health), Salford WRS
Member since
23rd May 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 27-Apr-09 02:20 PM

Hi Sue, did you get an opinion?

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 27-Apr-09 02:27 PM

Still waiting for Garden Court North to get back to me. I'll ring today.

BTW Damien, I tried to ring you a few weeks ago about an immigration matter but couldn't get past the telephone line adviser. Talk about problems with JCP and implicit consent !!

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 26-May-09 09:15 AM


Suelees, did you get an opinion?

I have a client in a similar situation. She is on Incapacity Benefit and has been told in writing by Jobcentre Plus that only the first £100,000.00 of her mortgage will count and that she will have to wait 39 weeks to get anything.

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 01-Jun-09 08:40 AM

I'm just back in today after a month off so it'll take me some time to catch up. I'll let you know as soon as I know anything myself.

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 15-Jun-09 10:12 AM

To add to ongoing posts...I have client who was part of a couple where no entitlement to IS (he worked F/T). He left mid Jan 2009 and she claimed IS, with HCosts, as top up to her existing IB. I anticipated nil entitlement for 13 weeks (IB too high) and 13 wk waiting period for HC to kick in.

Understood convered by new 13 week rules as had no entitlement to a relevant beneft (IB not a relevant benefit) and not in any sort of pre 05/01/09 qualifying period and claim made after 05/01/09. This would have been so applying the rules set out in DMG Memo 01/09.

Spoke today however to HCosts who sya 39 week waiting period . Wher I referred them to the rules as explained in DMG Memo 01/09 they said there is a new bulletin issued to all ESA/IS/JSA processing staff in March which says if claimant 1.claims after 05/01/09 and 2.has excess income/capital over requirements and 3.and is not entitled to a relevant benefit (eg ESA CB, JSA CB), at the start of the claim then they fall within the old rules. This revises the previous advice.

I have been sent a copy of the memo, but HC could not say what is it authority. Does anyone have any more info ...I am not aware of any changes in the Regs??

  

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bensup
                              

Benefits Supervisor, Barrow-in-Furness, Cumbria Citizens Advice Bureau
Member since
24th May 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 15-Jun-09 11:43 AM

Not a reply specifically to this topic's issue but have you considered whether she was abandoned Sue?

Would give her the 8 week/16 week, qualifying period if she was.

Regards

Nicky

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 15-Jun-09 12:55 PM

Hi Nicky, she'd already asked for a recon on these grounds but they refused so we've expanded on this for the submission.

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 15-Jun-09 03:25 PM

There are 2 Sue's posting!! ...and yes we have already considered abandonment but doesnt apply to us either

  

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JoanW
                              

Welfare Benefits caseworker, Citizens Advice, Canterbury
Member since
14th Jan 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 22-Jun-09 06:36 PM

Hi Sue

Had a similar case to yours but, happily for my client, his time on IB prior to claim in mid-January, led to his being treated as being on IS and therefore had effectively served his 39 weeks and got H/C paid from date of claim - clearly your client doesn't qualify because of her ex-partner's F/T work.

Regs are certainly thin on the ground but an article in the Welfare Rights Bulletin, March '09, references Reg 8(3)(a)HCSA Regs for this 'new rules apply only where entitled to relevant benefit' aspect of the change.
It was armed with this info that I contacted the IS dept at BDC who 'advised' that ALL new claims post 5th Jan were subject to the new rules and that, instead of being confused by such writing, I should ask the experts. This came from someone who boasted 24 years experience!
Fortunately the HC people soon righted that misinformation but what hope do the clients have?

Hope this helps

Joan



  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 23-Jun-09 08:24 AM

Just an update - counsel were very slow getting back to me so I contacted PLP. Their initial thoughts are promising.



  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 23-Jun-09 09:51 AM

Yes the original DWP memo DMGH 01/09 suggests my client would have been covered by the new rules (13 week waiting period for H Costs etc) The BDC say they think the Bulletin notification reflects an unfairness and they are keeping a note of all such claimants who, following the Bulletin instructions, are now excluded from the new rules and have to wait 39 weeks for H Costs: this is in case the rules are changed because of that apparent unfairness.

I have spoke to CPAG who have apparently already made representations on this issue. They ran me through the DWP arguments ..Part 3 of the SS(H Costs…..)(..) Regs 2008 modifies the rules for certain persons who claim a relevant benefit after 04/01/09: and Reg 8 (3) (a) covers a person who is entitled to a relevant benefit (ie not one who isn’t yet but will be when the H Costs kick in): and the IS Sched 3 deeming rules are not specifically incorporated for this purpose. This means you qualify under the new rules (so 13 week waiting period for H Costs etc) if you happen to be immediately entitled to payment (eg contribution based ESA/JSA, or IS/income based ESA/JSA) but if you are on say IB and have too much income to qualify (excess income over requirements or “EIOR”) until the H Costs kick in, then you are not a person covered by the new Regs so have to wait 39 weeks for H Costs. Does indeed seem unfair.

I look forward to suelees feedback!

  

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kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 30-Jun-09 11:48 AM

Good Afternoon,

Just wanted to see if anyone agrees/disgrees with me on the following.

A client has a £150,000 mortgage they have excess income at the current time to be entitled to any IS/JSA/ESA, they apply for help with housing costs and are told they will have to wait 39 weeks.

After 8 weeks their excess income drops and they are now entitled to IS/JSA/ESA (relevant benefit) and therefore could now come under new rules 13 week waiting period.

I think in this situation they would have to wait the remainder of the 39 weeks due to linking rules.

Does anyone else agree?

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Tue 30-Jun-09 01:10 PM

Yes,I agree!
Under SS ( Housing Costs Special Arrangements(Amendment and Modification) Regs 2008,Reg 8 (3) ( c ) the claimant seems to be specifically excluded from new rules (13 weeks etc). That Reg says a post 4 Jan relevant benefit claimant doesnt fall within the new rules where the new entitlement is immediately preceded by a linked period, and a linked period is in turn defined in (6) to include a period of deemed as opposed to actual IS/JSA/ESA, deemed because of excess income/capital.

So if the new rules can''t apply then stuck with the original 39 weeks waiting period and lower maximum housing costs.

My understanding anyway!

  

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Dan_manville
                              

Caseworker, Birmingham Tribunal Unit
Member since
08th Jun 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Tue 30-Jun-09 02:42 PM

Can I join the queue waiting for Suelees' counsel's opinion? I've just picked up a case where this is the key factor.

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 08:22 AM

PLP has just sent me the subs for my client's imminent First tier Tribunal hearing. If appropriate I can let you have a copy. As a taster the first para reads

There is a difference in treatment between (1) the appellant, an incapacity benefit (IB) claimant, and (2) claimants of employment support allowance (ESA), as the latter group is entitled to a more generous housing costs regime. This difference arises on account of the Social Security (Housing Costs Special Arrangements) (Amendment and Modification) Regulations 2008, (the ‘HCSA Regulations’), and has resulted in the appellant being significantly worse off, despite being in an analogous position, (in receipt of the benefit that is payable by virtue of their incapacity for work). We submit that these provisions are discriminatory and violate Article 14 of the European Convention on Human Rights (A14) read with Article 8 (A8) and Article 1 of the First Protocol (A1P1).

Sue


  

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kev3kev3
                              

Welfare Benefit Trainer, eaga plc, Newcastle upon Tyne
Member since
04th Feb 2009

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 08:26 AM

I would appreciate a copy if possible.

Thanks Much

Kevin

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 08:34 AM

Me too please...as ther are likely to be several of us I wonder if Rnet could make it avaialble for all to access. If not do you want fax no or email??
Thank you!
Sue C

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 08:39 AM

Send me your email please Sue as I can't attach a file to your Rightsnet one so can only cut and paste.

The dates in it relate to my case which I'll keep it so it makes it clearer (it won't breach any confidentiality)

Shawn can I send it to you ?

Sue

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 09:09 AM

Very many thanks,Sue.
My email address is
scartwright@lewesadvice.org.uk

Sue

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 01-Jul-09 09:29 PM

Wed 01-Jul-09 09:30 PM by iut044

Sue would you mind emailing it to me

my email address is m_shilton@hotmail.com

Thanks

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Thu 02-Jul-09 02:37 PM

Thu 02-Jul-09 03:16 PM by shawn

With thanks to Shawn for doing the techie bit and to PLP for the subs. Here they are but bear in mind the dates relate to a specific client. I have left them in for clarity. They've not yet been put in front of the Ft Trib as it's not been listed.

Link to PLP sub

And don't foget to slip slop slap

  

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nevip
                              

welfare rights adviser, sefton metropolitan borough council, liverpool.
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Thu 02-Jul-09 02:53 PM

"And don't foget to slip slop slap".

Is that how you describe a typical night out in Wigan, Sue?

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Thu 02-Jul-09 03:08 PM

If only you knew Paul. If you ever saw the tv programme about policing Wigan's King Street (aka bar street) on a Friday or Saturday night you'd have seen there was very much more than a bit of slip slop slap about.

I'm not based in Wigan any more and am back 'home' in our Leigh office so don't see as much of the 'Pie Eaters' now.

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Thu 02-Jul-09 07:33 PM

Thanks for emailing the submission.

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Fri 03-Jul-09 07:59 AM

I am unsure whether to represent my client or refer her to another organisation. If I did represent her would I have to become an expert on the European Convention on Human Rights?

  

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Damian
                              

WRO(Health), Salford WRS
Member since
23rd May 2005

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Fri 03-Jul-09 08:04 AM

All lobby gobblers instead then eh? Very refined!

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Fri 03-Jul-09 09:30 AM

I was going to put that in Damien but thought it would need an explanation and I don't have one !

************

iut044 why not contact PLP if you're unsure. It's Conrad who's done the sub for me. Have you got their details ?

I'm assuming it will have to go to UT after First tier for possible jr application.

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Fri 03-Jul-09 10:00 AM

Thanks for all your help Sue.

I do not have PLP's details. Please could you either post them or email them to me.

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Fri 03-Jul-09 10:25 AM

You're more than welcome

http://www.publiclawproject.org.uk/SpecialistSupport.html

It's Conrad Haley who's been advising me. I don't think he'd come across this housing costs issue before so now he's done the research it might be as well mentioning this rather than have someone else look at it who hasn't.

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Tue 14-Jul-09 10:51 AM

Hello again, well the DWP have excelled themselves, after my Tribunal of 06 07 09 on the 13 week rule, my client tells me that the DWP has accepted the decision and the client received a big fat cheque in the post today < 14 07 09 > for £1000 arrears of mortgage interest from 05 01 09.

so looks like the decision is now accepted as legitimate

John Gill
LINCOLN CAB

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 25-Nov-09 12:01 PM

To suelees, ..How did your tribunal go (you kindly let us see PLP sub)and were the Human Rights arguments addressed at the hearing?

And information for all:
Have just contacted SSAC to ask when we might hear more in relation to their comments on the Regs, and EIOR cases and other problem scenaraios...the sec has replied as follows:

The Committee conducted a 'formal referral' of the two sets of regs that deal with housing costs. The Committee's report on the proposed regs was sent to the SoS in July 2009, and I understand from officials that regs will be laid before Christmas. When the regs are laid, the SoS must publish the Committee's report (which remains confidential up to this point), and her response to it, in the form of a Command Paper that is laid with the regs before Parliament. Once the regs are brought into effect, new guidance to LAs will cover any consequent changes to eligibility for post January cases.

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Costs old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p....
Wed 25-Nov-09 01:10 PM

She won on abandoment so after all that kerfuffle I don't know if it was addressed at all but would guess not as there'd be no need.

I had considered asking for a SoR but we decided against it. Client was so pleased just to get arrears paid and thought that requesting this might open up a can of worms

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 09-Jul-09 03:25 PM

My tribunal of 06 07 did not go along with this , naturally I am inclined to agree. my argument is that the new rules are mere modifications to some of the old rules and do not over ride the sch 3 deeming rules. the tribunal were happy to agree so who am I to argue.

John Gill

Lincoln
CAB

  

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alison1w
                              

welfare rights officer, south tyneside mbc
Member since
05th Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 07-Jul-09 09:07 AM

I have been reading posts about the 39 week waiting period and breaking a claim to kick start the 13 week period. My client is on ibJSA but due to excess income at beginning of his claim has to wait 39 weeks. Do you know anyone who has withdrawn the JSA claim and then reclaimed, JSA is paid straightaway so 13 week QP starts. Would appreciate reply as want to advise client quickly.

Thanks alot.

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 09-Jul-09 02:28 PM

sounds dodgy , I would think thre is a better way way, See my message of 06 07 09 re ALL claimants coming under 13 week rule. please give more info on dates etc and I will try to respond.


John Gill
Lincoln CAB

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 06-Jul-09 02:58 PM

I have just succeeded in having the new rules applied at !st level tribunal on basis that shedule 3 , para 14 applies by providing that claimant has an entitlement to IS during the time from when IB credits were paid.
Therefore he does come under part 2 of the new modifications.
It is clear from explanatory memorandum , para 7.6. to SI 2008 No 3195 that ALL claiamants who are in a waiting period benefit by the new 13 week rule.

I I expect the dwp may appeal but a close reading of the old and new regs encourages me that the argument is sound.

the tribunal took a shine to Commissioner Decision cjsa/4613/2001 which casts light on the issue of entitlement while serving a waiting period.

John Gill
Lincoln CAB

  

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alison1w
                              

welfare rights officer, south tyneside mbc
Member since
05th Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Fri 10-Jul-09 08:22 AM

I have just tried to google the commissioners dec. CJSA/4613/2001 but no match is coming up. Could you email me a copy please? alison.whalley@southtyneside.gov.uk

Thanks alot.

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Fri 10-Jul-09 12:58 PM

OK it's on it's way. it is not immediately obvious why it helps in this type of case but when combined with the argument I put forward it seemed to help.

Regards

John Gill

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 09-Jul-09 02:36 PM

see my meassage of 06 07 09

John Gill

lincoln CAB

  

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suelees
                              

Welfare and Debt Advisor, Stephensons Solicitors, Wigan
Member since
28th Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 09-Jul-09 03:22 PM

Thanks for the info John. It's very useful.

  

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Dan_manville
                              

Caseworker, Birmingham Tribunal Unit
Member since
08th Jun 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 13-Jul-09 02:56 PM

I just got to thinking, having read the explanatory memo to SSAc appended to the regs, that having a copy of the Howker decision to hand might be useful when this issue gets sticky...

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 14-Jul-09 10:54 AM

Tue 14-Jul-09 07:28 PM by shawn

(Edited to replace capitals with lower case)

DWP has already paid arrears back to 05 01 09 following the tribunal of 06 07 09 so looks like they now accept the 13 week rule applies to those in the earlier waiting period.

John Gill
Lincoln CAB

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 15-Jul-09 08:51 AM

thanks Editor, I was not trying to be rude using upper case the key just got stuck and I was so excited at my case outcome I just let it go in upper case.

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 21-Jul-09 09:34 AM

Delay in follow up as away on hols. Now back into the fray.
Good news as to situation of John Gill's client. My client still seems stuck though, having been long term on IB but in a couple where no IS entitlement until relationship breakdown mid Jan. Because of couple situation no deemed IS entitlement (ie cant apply IS Regs Sched 3 para 14 arguments, EIOR +IB)...and because IB not a relevant benefit , and no relevant benefit entitlement (ie IS) until HCosts kick in, then DWP insist we are stuck with 39 week waiting period. In which case we seem to have no argument except possible human rights/discrimination route as per PLP submission. Any thoughts anyone?

Please can "suelees" keep us informed as to outcome of her appeal and reactin of tribunal to H Rights arguments.

Sue C

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 27-Jul-09 07:50 AM

Hello , not sure why IS regs do not apply here, more info needed I think, is your case subject to an appeal ?.

I must be missing something as if claim made when breakdown in mid January why are dwp not applying the new rules from 05 01 09 !!!

John Gill

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 27-Jul-09 09:07 AM

They are applying waiting period applied only from the post 05/01/09 date of separation. This is because, prior to that, the reason for no IS entitlement was not because her income exceeded her capital (as in the frequent IB related single person claim...ie IB in excess of IS entitlement until HCosts included) but because in a different scenario being part of a couple, and with husband working full time. So it seems I can't bring her into Sched 3 deeming rules (deemed on IS where reason for non entitlement is EIOR/excess income over requirements).

Yes appeal is lodged, but for the moment only on Human Rights discrimination arguments…any suggested other arguments?!

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Mon 27-Jul-09 09:26 AM

my understanding of the regs is that the issue of husbands income being above IS applicable amount is what sch 3 is all about, NOT that IB exceeds IS applicable amount. sch 3 applies even where only NI credits are being paid. though of course as he worked f/t there would be no entitlement due to that fact.

I have just come back from holiday so am no doubt a bit slow, but if a fresh claim was made after 05 01 09 are they applying the 13 week rule to that claim ? which they should be doing of course.



sorry if I seem to be a bit dumb today.

John Gill

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 28-Jul-09 04:56 PM

Sorry for delay in reply, but I need a wet towel round my head every time I think about this one! Hope you enjoyed your holiday John!
Client (long term on IB) claimed IS after 04/01/09, and can, in any event, be deemed on IS only from date after 04/01/09 when her husband walked out : she has to look to housing costs modifications under Part 3 of HCSA Reg relating to persons who claim a relevant benefit after 04/01/09. Under latter Regs a claimant can come within new housing costs rules (13 weeks waiting period) if certain conditions met. Reg 8 (3) (a) or (b) are ok for my client …but (c) precludes her benefiting under new rules….(c )“in either case entitlement is not or was not immediately preceded by a linked period”. “Linked period is defined at Reg 8 (6) as “being a period when deemed in receipt of a relevant benefit under IS Regs Sched 3”.
Seems to me (although I am very happy to be shown wrong) that where first relevant benefit claim is made after 04/01/09 (actual and deemed) and, as in our case, IB precludes IS being paid until HCosts kick in (Excess Income over Requirements) then she is precluded from benefiting from 13 week waiting period because of Reg 8 (3) (c).

If a claimant falls within Part 2 (ie provisions relating to claimants who are entitled to a relevant benefit on 04/01/09) then there is seemingly no equivalent of Reg 8 (3) (c ) and , as per your case I think, the claimant can arguably be deemed under Sched 3 as being on a relevant benefit as at 04/01/09 so that the shorter waiting period applies. Had my clients husband walked out prior to 04/01/09 client would arguably have been entitled to 13 week waiting period on making her IS claim, albeit after 04/01/09, because of the deeming rule bringing her under Part 2.

Altogether tricky and other views gratefully received. Sorry this is so long.

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 29-Jul-09 10:49 AM

this is a bit rushed but the way I see it is that your client has made a fresh claim for IS so comes under Part 3, the new claim was NOT linked to a previous one therefore client is to be treated as entitled after 13 weeks.

the fact that client gets IB now is not relevent to any of this really. you just add the housing costs to her applicable amount, deduct the IB and that is what she will receive in housing costs, she will get 10 pence per week IS to get her into the system and pay the excess of IB towards housing costs, all this to kick in after THIRTEEN WEEKS.

I am not really sure where all this discrimaination/ human rights arguments are coming from in this topic, maybe I am missing some of the finer points of the lagal argument but it seems to me that any appeal could be grounded using the regs as they stand rather than more esoteric ''stuff''.

I am sure the Legal Eagles will correct me if I am in error !!!

Regards

John Gill

  

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suec
                              

outreach and welfare rights adviser, lewes + seaford cab
Member since
17th Nov 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 09:03 AM

Ah now I get it..I have been making it too complicated. To clarify, if claimant claims IS after 04/01/09 but is excluded from payment only because income exceeds applicable amount (EIOR) until HCosts kick in and he falls under under Sched 3 provisions re deemed entitlement to IS through EIOR period (eg on SSP/IB etc) then he is accepted (as per your tribunal ) as being entitled as at the date of claim to a relevant benefit (ie Sched 3 deemed IS equivalent to actual IS) for the new HCosts rules...so that 13 week wating period applies. Yes??!

Thanks John!

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 09:21 AM

Hi , that's the way I read it, the only thing that crossed my mind after I sent the message yesterday is that the DWP will probably say that the deeming rules do not apply as they were not included in the new reg's.

my argument to the tribunal was on the lines that the rules re, deeming entitlement were not removed by the recent amendments so they still apply.

I have to say that I was advised by second tier advice that the DWP were correct and that my tribunal would fail. so it shows that if you believe that you have a case , in general it is best to '' go for it''.

It also helped my case that the notes to the new amendments do say that the intention of Parliament is that ALL claimants should benefit from the 13 weeks rule, and of course any other interpretation would be unjust, not that being unjust has stopped the DWP in the past eh !!!

good luck

John

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 12:11 PM

There's a heck of a lot to take in on this thread.

What was the answer to the original question? Was there a 'yes' or 'no' or it is the jury still out?

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 01:04 PM

new rules apply

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 02:09 PM

Thanks John,

Can you also confirm that this is correct...? My client is on IS as incapable of work and has received ISMI for years. However, he has a £200,000+ mortgage and has been advised by the IS section to break his claim and reclaim to take advantage of the new rules. He's asked us if this is good advice.

I intend to advise him as follows:

1) He can break his claim for 12 weeks and then he will get HC's under the new rules when he reclaims;
2) this means he'll get no personal benefit for 12 weeks and no housing costs for 25+ weeks (12 weeks break in claim plus 13 weeks new waiting period);
3) The new benefit claim will be for ESA, unless he gets a job and can be treated as a welfare to work beneficiary (the standard linking period for IS incapacity claims being 8 weeks), in which case it will IS/IB;
4) If he fails WCA will have to claim JSA but will still come under new rules;
5) Whether he ends up on IS again or ESA, he can claim PC when's he's 60 in a year's time and will have HC's for an unlimited time under the new rules or until such time as the law is changed.

Does anyone think is wrong?

Ta muchly - I've found this a most difficult subject to grasp...

  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 03:06 PM

I just wonder how his lender will view this, no housing costs at all for 25 weeks !!! what will he live on during the 12 weeks with no benefit. how much is the financial loss compared to the proposed gain ?.

I am pleased that I have not yet been asked to put my neck out this far , lets hope the lender does not take advantage of the situation !!!

one assumes all of the £200. 000 are qualifying loans

good luck

John Gill

  

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Tony Bowman
                              

Welfare Rights Advisor, Reading Community Welfare Rights Unit
Member since
25th Nov 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 30-Jul-09 03:24 PM

Thanks very much John. Does that mean you agree with my conclusions?

After a non-dep deduction current housing costs are £69.17 a week. Under new rules and after the NDD they will £186.09 a week. It will therefore take 14.8 weeks under new rules to recoup the loss of the 25 week break (excluding penalties, charges, etc).

As to what he'll live on for 12 weeks (plus processing time for new claim) - that's a matter for the client (he does have a working non-dep at home).

I don't know the status of the loans, but will make enquiries - thanks for pointing that out, I hadn't considered it.

  

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LesleyS
                              

Welfare R ights Worker, South Lanarkshire Council, Hamilton
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 19-Aug-09 12:34 PM

Hello Jon,

I read with interest your success at arguing that the deeming provisions still apply for housing costs purposes and your view that all new claims post 4/1/2009 should have the 13 week housing costs period applied.

I would be interested, however, in hearing what your view is on a case where the ESA income applicable amount is exceeded by 4 week run on WTC. Schedule 6 paragraph 15(8) to (11) to the Employment and Support Regulations 2008 would seem to imply that the deeming provisions only apply where the claimant is in receipt of either a contributory allowance, a contribution-based jobseeker’s allowance, statutory sick pay or incapacity benefit OR s/he is paid credits OR s/he is a lone parent or carer.

As such the deeming provisions would therefore appear not to cover a person in receipt of WTC 4 week run on where they are not a carer or lone parent.

Am I wrong Jon?

Look forward to hearing from you.

Lesley






  

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lincolncab
                              

Benefits Caseworker, Lincoln CAB
Member since
06th Jul 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 19-Aug-09 01:22 PM

Hi, it's John by the way. I think you may have answered your own question to some degree. As you say the deeming provision apply where a climant is entitled to credits for incapacity/limited capability for work. Your client would be so entitled I believe, and therefore the deeming provisions would apply.

this is just off the top of my head so please correct me if I have missed something.

Regards

John Gill

  

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LesleyS
                              

Welfare R ights Worker, South Lanarkshire Council, Hamilton
Member since
22nd Jan 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 19-Aug-09 03:09 PM

Hello again John,
Of course, the ESA(IR) claim = satisfies the credits condition.
Can't see the wood for trees!
Cheers again, will let you know how we get on with our appeal.
Best wishes.
Lesley

  

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iut044
                              

Advisor, South West Lancashire Independent Community Advice
Member since
15th May 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 04-Nov-09 01:41 PM

Has you client received their money Lincolncab, have the department appealed to the upper chamber?

  

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Big Lee
                              

Social Security Caseworker, Law Centre(NI) - Belfast
Member since
03rd Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Wed 25-Nov-09 09:10 AM

I've read through this thread and I'm not actually sure now if I have the answer I need or if I'm even more confused, I really hate this housing costs stuff!

The difficulty with the case I have at the moment is that the client (member of a couple) initially claimed IS on 30/01/09. Claim was refused on the basis of excess income. His wife susbsequently reduced her hours in work thus reducing her income and they re-claimed IS on 13/03/09. They are now entitled to around £7 per week in IS but this doesn't include housing costs and they had been told they have to satisfy the 39 week waiting period (which starts from the 30/01/09 claim). The couple have appealed it and Schedule 3 and para. 14 have been quoted in the appeal submission (although without any explanation as to how they have decided it applies)

From what I can get from the earlier posts in this thread and from my own reading of the legislation, the appeal against the 13/03/09 claim isn't going to succeed as it was a claim that was preceded by a linking period and falls fowl of Reg 8(3)(c) and so they can't benefit from the new shorter waiting period? I would like to be wrong (and I often am!) so can anyone shed light on this for me?

  

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Ember
                              

Benefit Adviser / Trainer, Welfare Benefits Unit, York
Member since
12th Sep 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 08-Dec-09 03:30 PM

Hi,
You don't say what grounds IS was claimed on. Can make a difference to how you work your way round the regs. Take a look at Sch.3 para.14, subparas 4to 5B of the IS regs. These haven't been amended or revoked by the new regs inSI 2008 NO. 3195 so still stand..

If your client falls into one of the relevant categories here I'd say the 13 weeks should have started counting on 30/01/09 at the latest.

What do you think?
M

  

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Robbie Spence
                              

Welfare Rights Caseworker, RNID London EC1
Member since
10th Nov 2009

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 10-Dec-09 11:49 AM

Hi Big Lee,

This is a long and complicated thread and I hesitate to state the obvious, and hope I haven’t missed something. But… the 13-week waiting period applies if you claim IS, JSA (contribution-based or income-based) or ESA (contributory or income-related) after 4 Jan 2009.

In your case, both claims are after 4 Jan 2009: the client initially claimed IS on 30/01/09 and re-claimed IS on 13/03/09. If they’d first claimed IS on 13/03/09, they’d get housing costs from 13/06/09, but as they did actually first claim IS on 30/01/09, they should get housing costs from 30/04/09.

Robbie

  

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Big Lee
                              

Social Security Caseworker, Law Centre(NI) - Belfast
Member since
03rd Feb 2004

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Thu 10-Dec-09 12:00 PM

Cheers Ember and Robbie.

The problem is Robbie, the 13 week rule applies if you claim and are entitled to IS/JSA/ESA etc after the 4 January 2009. They were not entitled to IS on their 30 Jan claim because of excess income. When they re-claimed in March, the partners earnings had decreased and so they qualified but the Department state that they are in a linked period due to the claim on 30 Jan being refused due to excess income.

I think from what Ember is suggesting, the argument I have now is that Part 3 of the new legislation on housing costs states you get the 13 week period if you were entitled to IS after 4 January 2009. While the claim made on 30 January 2009 was refused due to excess income, the Department themselves have accepted they would then be in a linked period under Schedule 3, para 14, sub-paras 4-5A. This requries them to be treated as entitled to IS. So the argument is "entitled" in the new housing costs legislation includes "treated as entitled" in Schedule 3 and so the 13 week rule applies from their claim on 30 January 2009.

I think this is what somone (John maybe?) was getting at earlier in the thread but my brain starts to shut down in terror every time I start to try and figure this case out! Cheers for the help though!

  

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Ember
                              

Benefit Adviser / Trainer, Welfare Benefits Unit, York
Member since
12th Sep 2007

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Fri 11-Dec-09 01:38 PM

Hi Lee,

You got the gist of what I was trying to say.

The department seem to be trying to come out on top both ways in your case.

If the say your client wasn't entitled or treated as entitled they cannot link the claims.

So you've got two arguments. Go confuse a tribunal.

M

  

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shawn
                              

editorial director, rightsnet
Member since
28th Jul 2005

RE: Housing Cost's old rules applying for new claims if you arent in receipt of a relevent benefit p...
Tue 15-Dec-09 02:19 PM

'interesting' development !

new regs that deal with (ahem) 'certain anomalies and unintended consequences' ....

available @ http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2009/uksi_20093257_en_1

  

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