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UC claim, CJSA entitlement &c…...

Andrew Dutton
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This has been discussed before -
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7601/P30/
http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7567/

and has come back to mind as I have filled in a UC online claim for someone today who probably qualifies for CJSA too.

I’ve written to UC to ask how they propose to check entitlement to CJSA as there are no prompts at all on the UC claim form.

The UC online form bristles with threats of prosecution for giving false information – but this is a case where the claimant didn’t even know about CJSA entitlement, and was rejected by the system when attempting (at first) to claim JSA online.

I assume that JC+ will pick up the issue of CJSA at the adviser appointment – but that is not good enough.

Claimant has finished work, has no money right here and now, but will not be paid UC till October 17th. So much for HMG’s belief that everyone leaves work with money to spare. If CJSA were easier to claim, presumably it would be paid fortnightly in arrears, and would reduce the hardship of waiting for UC.

The form clearly instructs claimants to search for work and record their work-searches even during the 7-day waiting period. So you’ve no entitlement to benefit for that period but it can be used against you if you don’t do ‘enough’!!!??? (I don’t think the Regs actually allow this, just from memory, but it is implied)

Another thing – at the end, the UC online form demands that the claimant register with Universal Jobmatch, and the next ‘step’ is the UJM web page. I don’t remember that registering with UJM is a requirement of UC - ?

SocSec
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welfare benefits/citizens advice//ashfield

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a shame your client does not come into one of the excluded groups for UC

Peter Turville
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The issue of UC v JSA(C) was raised at our local JCP stakeholders meeting today. We are in a single claimant only gateway area. JCP were not even aware of the issue or that the UC claim etc system has no questions about possible entitlement to JSA(C) instead. It was conceeded that Job Coaches would not seek to check JSA(C) entitlement and JCP had no suggestions on how claimants would know they should have claimed JSA(C) instead of UC or how to resolve the issue once in the UC system.

You could have knocked me down with a feather!

Andrew Dutton
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A colleague just had a very similar experience, Peter. I’ve put in a FoI request as follows:

Claiming ‘new’ Contribution Based JSA in Universal Credit areas
In areas where ‘gateway’ Universal Credit applies, it is still possible to claim Contribution Based Jobseeker’s Allowance, known as ‘new’ JSA.
A claimant who attempts to claim JSA online has their claim rejected and is redirected to Universal Credit.
The UC online claim makes no reference to previous National Insurance Contributions or to entitlement to CJSA.
There appears to be little or no information available to DWP staff to help them to identify CJSA claims for people claiming UC.
I wish to ask for:
• if the UC online claims makes any reference to claiming CJSA, a copy of the relevant page.  A screen-shot of the relevant page would be appropriate
• any information given to claimants either online or in writing that will help them to claim CJSA when making a UC claim
• a copy of the guidance provided to Work Coaches which explains how they may identify CJSA claims and ensure that a correct and timeous claim is made
• clarification from DWP – if someone claims UC and an ‘underlying’ CJSA claim is then identified by the Jobcentre, will the claimant be exposed to a repayable overpayment and possible fixed penalty even though they could not identify a CJSA claim for themselves and had no information from DWP in order to do so?
• as UC overpayments can be recovered even where DWP is at fault, what approach will be taken where claimants are in this situation?

 

andyrichards
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Ok…so when I worked in this area CJSA was called “unemployment benefit” - that’s how long ago it was!  But even then, the amount of information the claimant needed to supply to ascertain entitlement was minimal.  The information is obtained from the claimant’s NI Conts record.  All the claimant needs to supply in that regard is their national insurance number.  So it ought to be a fairly straightforward exercise to find out if someone is entitled to CJSA - unless of course the UC computer can’t talk to the NI computer.  But that wouldn’t be the case…..would it..?

Gareth Morgan
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andyrichards - 09 September 2015 11:54 AM

unless of course the UC computer can’t talk to the NI computer.  But that wouldn’t be the case…..would it..?

Of course not, that would require them them to be incompetent, poor planners and ignorant of the way that the benefits system works, How likely is that?

Daphne
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Just to say this came up again at operational stakeholders this week - they putting together a Q and A on UC and contributory benefits and have emailed me to ask what I think needs to go in so I am putting together questions from this thread and the others Andrew has highlighted to try and get some clarification. Update when I have it…

Ali P
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I am an advice worker in Dundee where UC started on 02/11/15.
This scenario has just happened to one of our claimants.
I was wondering if there was any update from the stake holders meetings?

Thanks

Daphne
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I’m afraid not - things do go excruciatingly slowly - I raised it again at the last meeting at the end of November - I will chase again.

Helen Rogers
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I’d also be interested to know what happens if someone is already on UC and they become sick.  I know that they stay on UC, but do they need to also claim ESA so that entitlement to contribution-based ESA can be checked?  Even if they know they won’t have enough contributions, do they still need to put in for ESA so that they can be paid NI conts, or do they get paid NI conts while they are on UC anyway?

Daphne
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Credits for UC are much less generous - only go toward pensions, widowed parents allowance and bereavement allowance - see cpag pg 991

If your client is eligible for cont ESA she should claim it as the credits for that count towards all contributory benefits except bereavement payment (CPAG pg 990). If she can’t get cont ESA tho there is nothing she can do except be assessed as having LCW under UC

Andrew Dutton
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I have had a response to further requests to FoI but to be honest it gets the query no further. DWP seem to expect claimants to thread together bits of information that they may or may not have seen, as opposed to giving them clear, comprehensible information.

AD:
You {have previously]address[ed] the matter of existing entitlement to CJSA, about which I am fully aware - I want to know how a person can even know they may have a valid claim, and how they make that claim.

There is no reference to CJSA in the UC online form, there is no apparent mechanism for claiming CJSA under the UC regime and claimants are given no clear information.

Any attempt to claim JSA online is rejected.

The links that you provided do not provide especially relevant or helpful information regarding this aspect of the question. There is no way in which a claimant would know that s/he could claim CJSA in a UC area from the content therein.
There is a little information at
http://about.universalcredit.service.gov.uk/kms/Pages/Jobseekers_Allowance_contribution_-
_based_new_style_(JSA)(CNS).htm
and again at
http://about.universalcredit.service.gov.uk/kms/Pages/Universal_Credit_Policy_overview.htm
but it is barely enough. It says that you can get CJSA under UC, not how you get it.
Claimants should have plain information, they should not have to piece it together from bits of a web site.

I also asked for a copy of the guidance provided to Work Coaches which explains how they may identify CJSA claims and ensure that a correct and timeous claim is made - there is no response to this.

DWP:

The relevant information on claiming JSA or JSA (CNS) is available on GOV.UK. The benefit criteria is explained on the website within the section on Job Seeker’s Allowance.

A claim needs to be made for Job Seeker’s Allowance and when the claim is assessed, it is determined whether the individual qualifies for Income based JSA or Contribution based JSA.

A benefit calculator is available on GOV.UK.to help an individual determine that.

There is no detailed guidance on claiming CJSA within Knowledge Management guidance.

This information is available on GOV.UK.as well as information on who to contact for
assistance.

However, Universal Credit Knowledge Management (UCKM) does refer to claiming CJSA alongside Universal Credit.

The UCKM content item ‘Universal Credit Policy overview’ states that Universal Credit: ‘will not replace contributory Jobseeker’s Allowance or contributory Employment and Support Allowance. A claimant may claim one of these benefits and receive this alongside Universal Credit if they wish’

The UCKM content item ‘JSA (CNS) Taking a claim for JSA(CNS) states: ‘For advice on
making a claim either go online to http://www.gov.uk or phone the Benefit Advice Line on 0800 055 6688’

Daphne
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I had a phone call with some people from the UC policy team today. They are aware that there is a problem for people who need to claim contributory JSA alongside UC - the only way is to make a phone claim but people on the phone line try and push you towards the online claim. Also UC claimants are not receiving advice that they may be able to claim cont JSA as well.

What they said to me was that they are looking at processes to change the guidance so that claimants are properly advised. However, the meeting to discuss this isn’t till the end of the month and then it has to go through various processes before it becomes operational. They are also looking to improve pages on gov.uk. It was a very frustrating call - although aware of the problem there seems to be no way to find a speedier resolution - I asked about training for work coaches but this also apparently has to go through lots of processes before anything actually happens. It seems unlikely that there will be any improvement for a while.

Conversely, the digital service is updated every 2 weeks so it is much easier to implement changes there if there are problems.

It was left that we will be notified when new guidance/training has been implemented so that we can see if there is an improvement. I am sorry not to be able to give better news…

Ali P
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thanks for the update

1964
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Not hurrah but very, very predictable… thanks for the update and for trying Daphne.

Claire Hodgson
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mmmmm

was debating whether to apply next week (redundant end of this week)

that’ll be fun, then…... i live in a UC area

best go look it all up, then!

Claire Hodgson
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Claire Hodgson - 03 February 2016 10:19 PM

mmmmm

was debating whether to apply next week (redundant end of this week)

that’ll be fun, then…... i live in a UC area

best go look it all up, then!

and then there’s this:

https://www.dwpe-services.direct.gov.uk/portal/page/portal/jsaol/lp

online application for JSA…..

Daphne
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Is that an online application in Welsh Claire?

Very sorry to hear about the redundancy - I hope you find something else soon

1964
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Me too. May the future be a proper good one for you. And don’t go away will you?

Gareth Morgan
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Daphne - 04 February 2016 09:25 AM

Is that an online application in Welsh Claire?

Yep. starting a new claim or retrieving a saved claim.

Claire Hodgson
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i didn’t spot that it was meant to be in welsh - it was a link from the relevant gov.uk page.

i shall have to reregister; no i won’t be going away!

Claire Hodgson
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Daphne - 04 February 2016 09:25 AM

Is that an online application in Welsh Claire?

Very sorry to hear about the redundancy - I hope you find something else soon

no.
see screendump attached looks like english to me…

 

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Andrew Dutton
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Is there any update on this? Confusion still seems to reign…

Daphne
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I’m afraid not Andrew - I will keep pushing for something - it is very frustrating…