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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Work capability issues and ESA  →  Thread

Bitcoin mining and permitted work rules

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BC Welfare Rights
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Bit off the wall this, at least for a non-techy like me. Wondered how it would fit in with less than 16 hours p/w rules for ESA PW?

Client is involved in bitcoin mining (google it) which basically means that his computer is switched on 24 hours p/d linked to a network of other computers (a local bitcoin pool) all happily mining for bitcoin. He says that he does not actually do anything other than maybe 2-3 hours p/w when he ‘auto changes the mining pool’ and ‘cashes out’ the bitcoin. For this he gets about £60 p/w from selling the bitcoin he has mined.

My initial advice was that as long as he was only doing actual work for 2-3 hours p/w it should be fine. But I’m wondering now if the fact that his computer is working 24 hours p/d and it’s his computer under his control, might call this in to question?

Any opinions or experience appreciated.

John Birks
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You could argue the same for HFT where the gains (and losses) are significantly more - A few hours coding in your bedroom for 0000000’s of daily trades and cancellations (spoofing.)

You could argue, this is de minimus.

Then again HMRC (or DWP) might argue that there’s regularity and the mining is done for the purposes of profit. 

Peter Turville
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John Birks - 13 August 2015 02:31 PM

You could argue the same for HFT where the gains (and losses) are significantly more - A few hours coding in your bedroom for 0000000’s of daily trades and cancellations (spoofing.)

You could argue, this is de minimus.

Then again HMRC (or DWP) might argue that there’s regularity and the mining is done for the purposes of profit. 

Who now can remember the days when there was ‘real’ mining in this country - how times change?

BC Welfare Rights
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Peter Turville - 13 August 2015 04:56 PM

Who now can remember the days when there was ‘real’ mining in this country - how times change?

Kellingley colliery not far from Wakefield is still open I think but yes, Yorkshire has gone from 50odd pits at the time of the strike to just 1 (or possibly 2) now. Maybe if Jeremy Corbyn gets to be PM bitcoin will get the boot and miners will get their boots back on…

 

1964
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If only….

I’ve just Googled Bitcoin Mining. Can’t get my head around it. Am I correct in thinking that it’s a bit like pyramid selling?

Edited to say- should I also be worried that local work providers are going to be press-ganging my clients into setting up as self-employed Bitcoin Miners?

John Birks
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Billy Durrant - 13 August 2015 06:04 PM
Peter Turville - 13 August 2015 04:56 PM

Who now can remember the days when there was ‘real’ mining in this country - how times change?

Kellingley colliery not far from Wakefield is still open I think but yes, Yorkshire has gone from 50odd pits at the time of the strike to just 1 (or possibly 2) now. Maybe if Jeremy Corbyn gets to be PM bitcoin will get the boot and miners will get their boots back on…

That has cheered me up no end on this damp, dark, miserable Friday.

paulmoorhouse
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I would think that theres an agrument that it is not ‘work’ in any meaninful sense, it is more akin to investing in the futures market, or spending a few hours qamonth down the bookies placing bets and reading form in the papers—or are you wanting to argue the it is work so that the income can be disregarded—in which case I agree it is only the hours HE’S engaged in any activity ‘by hand or by brain’ which count.

John Birks
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paulmoorhouse - 14 August 2015 09:51 AM

I would think that theres an agrument that it is not ‘work’ in any meaninful sense, it is more akin to investing in the futures market, or spending a few hours qamonth down the bookies placing bets and reading form in the papers—or are you wanting to argue the it is work so that the income can be disregarded—in which case I agree it is only the hours HE’S engaged in any activity ‘by hand or by brain’ which count.

I think Paul is right - This is just ‘other income’ rather than income from work.

BC Welfare Rights
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Thanks folks, helpful as ever. I was intending to argue that it was 2-3 hours p/w permitted work and I think that I’ll stick with that.

1964, the mining bit is not so much pyramid selling. Traditionally, governments print money and control the supply of it to stabilise currency. Bitcoin (I now know) is a decentralised currency, hidden away in mathematical code and is discovered in blocks. These can be found by trawling through endless data and solving complex mathematical problems. This is easiest done by a collective of computers working as a ‘local mining pool’ who when they solve the mathematical problems and discover the Bitcoin also verify it (somehow). They then sell it and share the resulting profit. It is designed to be a labour intensive process that mimicks real mining and ensures that a slow but steady supply of new Bitcoin is released and attempts at fraudulent transaction are rejected.

The 2-3 hours work bit is basically dealing with the administration of selling the Bitcoin on to people who want to buy it (be they drugs smugglers, ISIS, tech geeks, speculators and spivs, or perhaps just ordinary folk who would rather deal in non-governmental currency).

There is some upfront investment required to do this, buying a suitable computer and getting the software and security stuff, so shouldn’t be something that can be forced on to claimants.

I always thought that Welfare Rights was hard to get my head round but having dipped my toe into this sort of nonsense I realise it is actually a piece of cake…

1964
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Good Grief!!

Thank you Billy. You live and learn….

Pete C
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All together now….” hi ho, hi ho its off to work we go…............”

1964
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Someone had to didn’t they??

I’m both Dopey and Grumpy by the way. Think it’s probably the weather….

Peter Turville
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and who now remembers the days when if one wanted the kind of psychedelic experience described by Billy above one just went down to the local park, tunned the trannie to Radio London and dropped a few tabs of a certain something ..... (cliche alert) but then if you did you probably don’t remember ....

Billy, I once enjoyed an education visit down South Normanton pit!

[ Edited: 14 Aug 2015 at 01:47 pm by Peter Turville ]
1964
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Peter, we obviously moved in the same circles!!

BC Welfare Rights
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As unofficial rep for the Yorkshire Tourist Board, educational (and possibly psychedelic) tours can still be had here https://www.ncm.org.uk/.

Just one of the many exciting adventures to be had in God’s own county

Benny Fitzpatrick
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I’ve been underground there. Not a bitcoin in sight!