Voodoo Tribunal - should I cast a spell on you?

Something for a hot Friday afternoon…

Client has ESA tribunal coming up. He is from a rural part of Western Africa and has beliefs including the power of black magic/voodoo. He is convinced that the only way of winning his tribunal is by allowing a witch doctor to perform some sort of ritual that will cast a spell upon the panel meaning that they are sure to find in his favour. All well and good. However, he says that only way it will work is if I also participate in the ritual, otherwise, I will be a force against the spell and it won’t work. If I refuse he says that he will go to the hearing unrepresented.

Obviously at first I thought he was having a giraffe. But he is deadly serious and became visibly anxious and distressed when I did not agree to it.

From what I can make out the ritual doesn’t involve anything illegal. I have also looked through the Tribunal Procedure (First-tier Tribunal (Social Entitlement Chamber) Rules 2008 S.I. 2008 no. 2685 and can see nothing that prevents the casting of spells upon panel members. I can well imagine my manager’s reaction though…

What do the wizards of Rightsnet think? Anyone ever tried exercising supernatural powers to win a tribunal?

I was also wondering about whether and how to weave this information in to my submission and what a judge’s reaction might be.

Just to be clear billy, will the ritual require the witch doctor to enter the actual Tribunal hearing room itself or can it be done from outside? What exactly does it iinvolve?

I can’t see our local judiciary being too pleased about any request. Although Equalities Act? Rule 2 ?

Reg 30(5)(a)?

I don’t see anything wrong with this, after all the Sec of State has long believed that ATOS have magical powers to make ill people fit for work.

As a matter of interest where was this ritual going to be performed, in the room or somewhere outside the Tribunal centre?

Pete C - 03 July 2015 01:18 PM

I don’t see anything wrong with this, after all the Sec of State has long believed that ATOS have magical powers to make ill people fit for work.

Lol!

But seriously, aside from the fact that he is not trying to do this in or around the FtT, then can’t see anything wrong. I know the believe is very strong, in some parts of Africa, as well as other parts of the world, and it’s exactly like a Christian anting to get the same sort of assistance from his pastor or a preacher.

In Marsden locals do the rain dance and it works most of the year, most of the month, most of the week , most of the day so sounds right to me if it helps your client .  Not sure about the rep taking part but would this enhance the powers of the representative? And if it did would a Tribunal need to control those powers? (R v Leicster City Justice ex p Barrow [1992] 2 QB 260.)

‘The appellant challenged a community charge liability order in which justices had refused an application made on his behalf for a friend to be allowed to sit with him to give advice and assistance. He sought judicial review. The Divisional Court had refused review.
Held: The appeal succeeded. ‘A party to proceedings has a right to present his own case and in so doing to arm himself with such assistance as he thinks appropriate, subject to the right of the court to intervene . . if a party arms himself with assistance in order the better himself to present his case, it is not a question of seeking the leave of the court. It is a question of the court objecting and restricting him in the use of this assistance,......’

i would go along with it.

you dont want to end up with a spell cast on you.

And people ask why I still want to work as an advice worker after 33 years. Would live stock be involved at any point?

I’m kind of sorry to introduce a serious note but…

This kind of opens the way for DWP to argue an inchoate offence is being committed because, by allowing it to happen even in the tribunal building, the tribunal or TS are appearing to accept they can be influenced by such a thing.

It’s also worth bearing in mind that the tribunal might well be minded to exercise their judgement and just say no. Witch doctors may have some very strong beliefs but they also have some which in their own countries are held to be illegal and abhorrent. At a time when there’s campaigns against FGM and the murder of albinos it would be entirely understandable for the TS to take the view that to allow such a thing in a public building would be potentially inflammatory and somewhat inappropriate (I’m being polite) and prone to being misunderstood. Individual members of a tribunal may have personal objections about it that could be entirely legitimate too. Also foreseeable a representative may have concerns and, even if they do not, it’s one I would suggest that needs to be run past the employer of the representative as the repercussions could be many and varied.

It would be interesting to ask the question as to what this appellant would do were they be allowed to do this and then they lose the appeal. The answer to that may give considerable pause to thought as to whether this appellant ought to be represented.

It’s worth bearing in mind how this would proceed if the reverse were to be the case. What would be the likely outcome if a tribunal judge felt that the only way to get honesty from an appellant, representative and/or presenting officer were the application of something like this? I’m sure we have all at some point come across the rare judge/chair who has asked an appellant to swear on a bible. Now, what might be the average welfare rights response to that?

Finally, and not to be underestimated, where this takes place (assuming it does) is vitally important. The impressions of justice being seen to be done could be wholly undermined if a tribunal are seen or perceived to be allowing this to take place.

Thoughts?

Presumably, the witch doctor’s powers don’t extend to making his client fit for work.  Would the tribunal clerk and presenting officer have to consent to the spell also?  And would Equality of arms allow the PO to bring his own witch doctor?

Edited on request.

There are prayer rooms in the Royal Courts of Justice and, indeed, most courts around the country also have them.  So, there would be nothing wrong in someone attending a tribunal to be allowed to use a room to pray in or hold some equivalent thereof.  Whether something akin to a religious ceremony would be permitted is another thing altogether.  It all depends on what is involved of course and whether HMCTS view Voodoo as a legitimate religion.  But, I cannot see HMCTS allowing a minister of religion (or whatever he calls himself) to perform a religious ceremony on its premises.

What one prays for in private (presumably a favourable outcome to the case) is thus not, in itself, an issue as prayer in the building is allowed and no-one can read minds.  Oral incantations, of course, are potentially a different matter altogether.  The so called casting of spells has exactly the same potency (or lack of) as prayer to the non-believer or sceptic, so issues around influencing the outcome of the case don’t come up in my mind and appeals to UT’s or the higher courts on this basis are, in my view, non-starters.

However, I agree that a representative should run a mile from participating in such ceremonies (whether on HMCTS premises or not) for potential repercussions on his employment.  And, I would say that if words are to be spoken out loud during the prayer/ceremony then they need to be agreed to in advance and possibly monitored at the time for potential breaches of the criminal and slander laws.  And, it goes without saying that no such ‘ceremonies’ would be permissible in the tribunal itself.

What about something more general; such as distributing packets of pins and wax models of IDS?

Tom H - 08 July 2015 10:56 AM

Presumably, the witch doctor’s powers don’t extend to making his client fit for work.  Would the tribunal clerk and presenting officer have to consent to the spell also?  And would Equality of arms allow the PO to bring his own witch doctor?

If the Equality of Arms argument holds then presumably the Sec of State would have to look for an external provider of witch doctors!

[/quote] If the Equality of Arms argument holds then presumably the Sec of State would have to look for an external provider of witch doctors![/quote]

Ah, you mean like interpreters! Turn up late; not quite the right language and then “interpret” in the sense of completely rewriting? No?

Oh, maybe you mean like ATOS medical professionals? If we can have physios and OTs why not witch doctors? Same status as osteopaths or chiropractors surely? :)

I really really really want there to be a headline about the first ATOS, Capita, Maximus appointment of a homeopath.

Reminds me of an old Billy Connolly joke…................Things you never hear at a road accident -  “let me through, I’m a homeopath!!!”