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“How many minutes can you walk for?”
Although I have not recently seen much cause for complaint about PIP assessments locally, I am a bit concerned about the above question being asked where it’s clearly inappropriate in the context. For example, when they are clearly unable to walk across a large room or above a snail’s pace.
It inevitably leads a claimant to saying ‘just a couple’ or ‘only about five’. The assumption in the question doesn’t allow for much else, and suddenly a decision maker who has no difficulty understanding figures of speech normally is temporarily unable to grasp the concept.
And despite the question being asked in this way, it’s retold in the DWP submission as if the claimant has volunteered the five minute figure unprompted.
This has been a problem since they started measuring walking distance. Normal people think that a couple of minutes is de minimis when it isn’t.
In addition, it creates confusion between walking “distance”, which is what is being assessed, and the time taken to cover that distance, which can certainly be relevant, but doesn’t score the points. I personally find it frustrating when I ask a client how far they can walk, and I get an answer of “5 minutes”. A minute is a measure of time, not distance, and people walk at differing speeds, so the time for which they are able to walk is not always helpful information.
Lots of other aspects to this too. It’s such a ridiculous thing to be even be discussing in 2016.
People don’t generally just walk. Some people with impairments will walk because they have been medically advised to do so but most will walk in order to go somewhere specific e.g. to a shop; an appointment; a friends; to walk a pet. Either way in most cases people walk with a purpose and that purpose usually involves carrying something with them like a wallet, keys, glasses etc. It’s rare to find someone walking with none of those things on board. I walk with a small man bag (stop laughing at the back. I “love” my man bag. It’s a thing of beauty. A small work of art as beautiful as a G7th capo). I have been shocked at the impact walking with the addition of a small bag can have on my ability to walk pain free and for how long. My spinal issues are good at present but at their worst the difference in distance and time is significant.
and the walking speed… that 60s traffic research they used to rely on had everyone power walking. 4 mile an hour? I’m not tardy and I only average 3.1mph
It’s not entirely on point, admittedly, but since Mr Finch mentioned Atos assessments across the water and Mike mentioned his spinal issues…
Earlier this year I had a middle-aged male client with multiple sclerosis AND, unfortunately, a spinal injury. As a result of pain, among other things, he could only shuffle a few metres with the support of a walking frame. He also had to stand all the time and lean on the frame because that position caused him the least pain and discomfort. The Atos assessor (a paramedic) claimed that she observed him walk freely and without stopping for 30 metres from the consultation room to the exit. I thought that was highly unlikely. Moreover, I doubted that the interior length of the entire building was anything like 30 metres.
Fortunately I have a young colleague here who happens to be professionally qualified as a chartered surveyor, which proved to be an example of true serendipity - ha! She was able to establish conclusively from publicly available sources that the exterior of the building was only 27 metres in length. And we knew that the assessment took place in a room somewhere in the middle of the building. In short, the assessor lied and this time we’d managed to catch her out, which was very satisfying. The tribunal hearing only took 10 minutes and the client was awarded enhanced mobility.
Here, however, the problem of assessments carried out in less than good faith continues apace.
We have a Doctor who sits in Hull who routinely asks Appellants how many mibnutes they can walk for. Everytime he asks it my eyes roll across the table. To be fair, nice bloke that he is, he rolls them back to me. A few months ago a particularly thoughtful client straight batted the question with the response ” I have no idea, what about you”? That did n’t go down well so the Doctor came back with “but I see you have a dog”. Yes said the client. Then “how many minutes can your dog walk for” said the Doctor. For a few seconds tumbleweed…...then very injudicious laughter.
It was quite a common question in our area the frustrating part is the Appellant guesses a time if not expecting it, and has no concept of how that can be extrapolated(my new favourite word). But the best one I have seen is the Doctor asked the customer about his shoes and the customers said they were quite new, then the Doc said well they are well worn for someone who says he cannot walk and rarely walks anywhere. Appeal lost.
Ah yes. I had one of those. Well worn after a mere 3 weeks simply because they were repeatedly damaged as the client struggled to get them on and off; dragged their feet along the floor and frequently tripped and slammed them into walls and floors. Brilliant client had anticipated far more than me and brought a pair of shoes that they’d discarded after a years worth of use because of the wear and tear. They looked pretty much the same as the three week old ones. Didn’t impact the outcome much to the obvious chagrin of a very smiley but fairly vicious medical professional. Appeal won.
It’s not entirely on point, admittedly, but since Mr Finch mentioned Atos assessments across the water and Mike mentioned his spinal issues…
Earlier this year I had a middle-aged male client with multiple sclerosis AND, unfortunately, a spinal injury. As a result of pain, among other things, he could only shuffle a few metres with the support of a walking frame. He also had to stand all the time and lean on the frame because that position caused him the least pain and discomfort. The Atos assessor (a paramedic) claimed that she observed him walk freely and without stopping for 30 metres from the consultation room to the exit. I thought that was highly unlikely. Moreover, I doubted that the interior length of the entire building was anything like 30 metres.
Fortunately I have a young colleague here who happens to be professionally qualified as a chartered surveyor, which proved to be an example of true serendipity - ha! She was able to establish conclusively from publicly available sources that the exterior of the building was only 27 metres in length. And we knew that the assessment took place in a room somewhere in the middle of the building. In short, the assessor lied and this time we’d managed to catch her out, which was very satisfying. The tribunal hearing only took 10 minutes and the client was awarded enhanced mobility.
Here, however, the problem of assessments carried out in less than good faith continues apace.
That sounds like a very useful piece of work. I too am sick of seeing HPs claim that client has walked 25,30 40 metres from the waiting area to the assessment room when it was nothing of the sort.
In one case I had two brothers with identical conditions each seen on separate days but in rooms opposite each other. One HP said that this was 15 metres, the other said hit was 5 metres. The Tribunal had no difficulty accepting the unreliability of the distances but clearly this sort of misleading evidence just should not be happening at all.
I think next time, I shall use Google maps and Streetview to measure the exterior of the assessment centre.
Other advisers with surveyor contacts could ask them to do a more accurate measurement.
Has anyone noticed that some tribunals have a laminated card with measurements of distance from hearing room to waiting area?
We have discussed whether advisers should attend assessments. One useful reason could be to accurately measure the distance from waiting room to assessment room!
[ Edited: 26 Dec 2016 at 10:12 am by neilbateman ]
“I think next time, I shall use Google maps and Streetview to measure the exterior of the assessment centre.
Other advisers with surveyor contacts could ask them to do a more accurate measurement.”
[/quote]
Neil, in case it’s of any value to you (or anyone else), Google maps certainly enables you to measure the dimensions of a building to fractions of a metre.
What I also learned from the surveyor was that all change of use applications for a building have to be filed with local authorities. These are public documents and should be available to view on a local council’s website (planning department). It’s very likely that Atos/Capita will have had to submit such applications in recent years. The documents will give you accurate building dimensions, room layout, etc. It’s useful because there’s no way Atos are going to let us in to start measuring, of course.
Nigel
In fairness, the only time I asked ATOS to provide measurements for a room in which an assessment had been carried out (the appellant had been said to have got out of the wheelchair and walked 50 metres) they provided a full answer, including likely position of the chair she would have sat in in relation to the room as a whole. As the room was only 4.5 x 4 metres and the chair was about 2 metres from the door, a walking distance of 50 metres seemed unlikely.
In fairness, the only time I asked ATOS to provide measurements for a room in which an assessment had been carried out (the appellant had been said to have got out of the wheelchair and walked 50 metres) they provided a full answer, including likely position of the chair she would have sat in in relation to the room as a whole. As the room was only 4.5 x 4 metres and the chair was about 2 metres from the door, a walking distance of 50 metres seemed unlikely.
Clearly they were in the Matrix measured in volume rather than distance.