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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Access to justice and advice sector issues  →  Thread

Benefit Calculators - Android/Apple Apps?

AdviceShop
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Hi All,

We’ve been discussing getting either an iPad or an android tablet to help us do benefit calculations while on external sessions/home visits. We currently use Lisson Grove QBC on our PC’s but they don’t have a portable version.

Does anybody know of a benefit calc that can be either accessed reasonably well via tablet internet or better yet a stand-a-lone app we can look at? A quick Google search hasn’t helped us much.

Thanks in advance,

Edmund Shepherd
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There is turn2us.org.uk, which has an online benefits calculator. I don’t have personal experience of it, but it may be useful if you’re in need.

Mike Hughes
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I do think this is a gap. Faffing about online is a PITA when working with clients. Having an app which is quicker; better designed and so on is much better.

Gareth Morgan
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Why not use a windows tablet?  Our apps are designed to work well with those ut you could use your existing system too.

Mike Hughes
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Unfortunately, 98% of the UK tablet market is occupied by Android and IOS devices. That 2% market share for Windows tablets isn’t really a selling point, especially when they are relatively overpriced in comparison to say Android. It’s also not going to be increasing any time soon despite the significant improvements in Windows 10. Now I’m no fan of Android but I’m no Apple fan boy either. The harsh reality for me as a user with a VI is that if I’m slow to do things anyway then using Android and having to use three actions for every one on an Apple device points me in only one direction.

The accessibility of apps is also far more open to manipulation than anything in a browser ever will be. Admittedly some of that is because developers work in isolation and involve users (and rarely disabled users) at far too late a stage, but, much of it is down to the way browsers work. Anyways, for me it’s Android or Apple. Windows isn’t even in the game. There will always be organisations that go down the Windows route for integration with existing Windows infrastructure but as Google and Apple are increasingly going out of their way to provide seamless integration that looks like the desperate and futile rearguard action it is. First to the tablet/network integration table wins and Apple and Google have already won.

Gareth Morgan
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You can get a 7 or 8 inch Windows tablet for about £80.  It will come with Word, Excel and PowerPoint subs for a year.  There’s very little available for iOS or android that you can’t do on a Windows tablet and a lot that you can do that you can’t do on the others.

Mike Hughes
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Hmm. Very much “you get what you pay for” with those things.

I’m not a fan of the assertion that you can’t be productive on a tablet. Every presentation or spreadsheet I’ve produced in the past year has been done on my iPad using touch and at great speed. That said, for £80 you’re getting a tiny screen; poor screen quality; relatively poor battery life; a serious lack of memory and so on. Useful for a single task maybe but even the reviewers concede that they’re best for “passive media consumption” rather than productivity.

I think of them in terms of the 16GB iPhone. After version 1 it keeps getting produced because some poor fool will buy one just to say they have one. However, day to day they’re effectively somewhere between 25% of an actual iPhone experience or near unusable. The other analogy might be with our first work PCs. 14” monitors anyone?

Gareth - if you can recreate my recording studio on a 7” Windows tablet I will bow in admiration. On the other hand I can’t wait to hear what you can do on a Windows tablet that you can’t on an iPad 😊

 

Gareth Morgan
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Mike Hughes - 13 October 2015 01:44 PM

I can’t wait to hear what you can do on a Windows tablet that you can’t on an iPad :)

OK>

Run macros on Excel
Plug in external storage
Use USB devices
Add internal storage using the SSD slot
Use a mouse
Plug in a DVD drive
Run LOTS of Windows only apps
etc
etc

l

Mike Hughes
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The only one I will give you there is “Run macros on Excel” 😊 However, it’s coming. It just needs to be executed properly. There are some neat workarounds but that’s another issue.

To deal with the others:

- there are several mice for iPads, but why would I ever want one? I can type and compose spreadsheets using touch without any great difficulty.
- the only reason a tablet user needs additional internal or external storage is because there wasn’t enough on the device in the first place, thus the silly cheap cost. 
- I am lost as to why I would ever need to plug in a DVD drive to a tablet. To add software? To watch films? To backup? All doable in much better, cheaper and faster ways.
- ditto USB devices. It’s a myth you can’t add a USB device to an iPad. You have always been able to do that using the original camera connection kit (an extra expense admittedly) but nowadays you just use a lightning to USB converter.

That just leaves “LOTS of Windows only apps”. No major developer has gone Windows only yet so there won’t be anything significant there that hasn’t been replicated for Android or IOS. I’ve been working with Windows 10 for some time as I’m on their Insider programme. The app store has improved immeasurably but to say that it lags behind IOS and Android is to do a disservice to the word “lag”. It’s in a different universe currently. 

I am of course playing devils advocate to a degree. However, the bottom line is that with a 2% market share and no compelling reason for that to shift then a benefit calculator for Windows is a dead end. To make it viable it has to be primarily for Android, with IOS not far behind, as that covers the greatest number of devices and market share.

Gareth Morgan
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Mike Hughes - 14 October 2015 10:26 AM

the bottom line is that with a 2% market share and no compelling reason for that to shift then a benefit calculator for Windows is a dead end. To make it viable it has to be primarily for Android, with IOS not far behind, as that covers the greatest number of devices and market share.

A)  market share

Strategy Analytics latest report, July 2015

Windows-branded Tablets comprised 9 percent of shipments in Q2 2015, up 4 points from Q2 2014
Android-branded Tablet shipment market share was flat at 70 percent in Q2 2015
Apple continued its slide in market share down to an all-time low of 21 percent in Q2 2015, 4 points lower than Q2 2014.

B)  You are ignoring the fact that I’m not talking about Windows tablet ONLY versions.

I’m talking about Windows systems and there are a hell of a lot more of those than Android or Apple tablets.

Our benefits calculators resize themselves for screen size and orientation.  They can be used covering only a small part of the screen even on small tablets.

You seem to be fixated on the fact that there are lots of private users who play games and listen to music on tablets and that makes them the best choice for everything.

Ask IT departments who are concerned with administering systems, ensuring security and allowing access to back-office systems and you’ll get a very different set of priorities that Apple and Android don’t satisfy.

Mike Hughes
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Eh? Er, shipments are what goes out not what gets sold. What gets sold is also only part of market share. MS “shipped” loads of mark 1 Surfaces. Most of them did not sell at all and MS had to write them down! Apple also ships less because most people who get an iPad hang onto them for a longer period than say Samsung or similar. Those figures also dip towards the end of a cycle before the new products are launched. Also worth noting that the definitions of tablet vary but increasingly include phablets. Most enterprises are not working with phablets. Phone and/or tablet yes but phablet no.   

I’m not ignoring your point re: networks but this thread was started specifically in relation to tablet versions. Noticeably it was started by someone who also works in the public sector. Windows networks certainly outnumber the number of Apple or Android based networks there and elsewhere but then neither Apple nor Android are targeting the replacement of Server or Exchange. They know that battle is lost at present. They’re targeting the devices that run on those networks and winning. Running Apple devices on Server or Exchange networks is commonplace and is increasing by the day. My employer is amongst many absolutely moving in that direction. 

The concerns of network administrators (I should fess up to Microsoft certification at this point perhaps) that you express are about 3 to 5 years out of date. I don’t mean you are. I mean they are. Apple has certainly been more successful at this point in getting into the corporate market but Android is also making inroads. There are different things at play in the voluntary sector as opposed to the public sector but that’s more to do with finance and the knowledge sets you get at certain pay grades with network admin. than anything to do with security.

I’m not sure why you think I’m fixated on the fact lots of people use tablets for one thing and that makes them good for all things. Not at all. I do think that the idea that they are only good for passive consumption is an absolute myth and clearly people like MS, who are moving Office for iPad along at a faster speed than 365, think the same. Equally, the ease with which I can compile a spreadsheet or training is not necessarily something colleagues, friends and family find as easy as me. Generally though the fact is that people are used to tablets and there’s little difference between writing a letter and responding to an email. One of the reasons the iPad has taken off at corporate level is people know what it can do and are crying out for it to happen. 

I note your comments re: calculators resizing and reorienting but that’s not really the issue or a selling point. People don’t want to work in a browser. They want to work in an app. with all the workflow advantages that confers. That;’‘s why the OP used the phrase “better still”. The first company that produces an app for Android and IOS takes this market and creates a huge profile for themselves which will be valuable to their other products and services. Windows apps are not really relevant to this discussion because most people use Windows on desktops and what’s being asked for is portability without necessarily having connectivity. Windows, in this context, is interesting to discuss but ultimately a dead end.

Jac
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Personally I like pen and paper!

Mike Hughes
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Jac - 14 October 2015 01:18 PM

Personally I like pen and paper!

Hahaha. So did I but then someone invented Tax Credits… :)

Gareth Morgan
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Mike Hughes - 14 October 2015 12:49 PM

Eh? Er, shipments are what goes out not what gets sold. What gets sold is also only part of market share. ....

I note your comments re: calculators resizing and reorienting but that’s not really the issue or a selling point. People don’t want to work in a browser. They want to work in an app. with all the workflow advantages that confers. T.

I think I’d stop digging on market share if I were you.

Our stuff on Windows tablets doesn’t run in browsers but standalone; which means they can fit in worklow processes easily.  Where are the database facilities hidden in Android or Apple?

I recognise the value of mobile technology; I’ve been producing standalone mobile ‘apps’ since 1987 and we did the world’s first large scale roll-out of mobile technology in government in 1988, when Employment Services used thousands of them in all their offices.

You may take it as given that we’ve spent a lot of time looking at Android and Apple and have produced development versions for both.  At the moment there are too many flaws in them for practical use.  Do you know how long it can take to get a new release of an app approved by Apple?

 

Mike Hughes
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Not sure what you mean by “digging” Gareth. Sales and shipments. Two different things. Simples. The Grauniad has even run several articles explaining this, although they foolishly left comments open 😊 

And “yes”, I do. 98% of apps. approved or otherwise within 5 working days as of last year. I have a friend whose company develops a number of work-related apps across a number of platforms e.g. time management, expenses and so on. He confirms that timescale. Another ex neighbour does similar for some fairly complex network based solutions apps and reckons it’s 2 weeks in a bad month. The biggest issue for IOS app development is simply investing in the hardware and SDK tools to get it done in the first place. Can’t comment on Android but judging by the sheer volume of dodgy stuff in their store the approval process doesn’t look especially onerous. 

I suspect the most telling thing on this thread so far is that we haven’t seen anyone step forward and say “my organisation is investing in Windows tablets and I need a Benefit Calculator app”. I’m not sure anyone needs a Benefits Calculator to “fit into workflow processes” either. Stand alone, working as per other apps. would be fine for most people I suspect.

I like MS. I like W10. They’re just not in this discussion any time soon.

Gareth Morgan
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Mike Hughes - 14 October 2015 02:08 PM

I like MS. I like W10. They’re just not in this discussion any time soon.

Except for the customers who are using our stuff on Windows tablets now.

Mike Hughes
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Gareth Morgan - 14 October 2015 02:39 PM
Mike Hughes - 14 October 2015 02:08 PM

I like MS. I like W10. They’re just not in this discussion any time soon.

Except for the customers who are using our stuff on Windows tablets now.

Might I respectfully suggest it may be better for your customers to post an endorsement or suggestion given the forum T&Cs;? This is an interesting discussion but I doubt either of us wants to land in hot water.

I appreciate you develop for Windows but that’s isn’t what the OP asked for and, in my view, that’s entirely understandable as it’s not the direction of travel for the market as a whole. I’m sure we can agree to disagree.

stevenmcavoy
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Jac - 14 October 2015 01:18 PM

Personally I like pen and paper!

I find this gives me decent practice at doing the checks manually as its a skill thats easy to lose.  admittedly it does take ages to do them individually rather than fire it into the QBC.

I also think pen and paper is the way anyone new to welfare rights should start as its the best way to lean even if it is torture.

Mike Hughes
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I’m inclined to agree but realistically it’s not what people do nowadays, especially those new to the work. It’s a skill I have, for the most part, lost. I am, on balance, happy to have done so. However, one interesting aspect of this is that I don’t believe anyone has really cracked “user-friendly” or “accessible” yet.

Most stuff still looks like it originates in the DOS era; appears to be 32 bit in a 64 bit world and hasn’t taken on board touch and the many inventive forms of navigation which can be seen within apps. Columns and lists is about the extent of it. One or two colours. No options available re: accessibility.

Indeed, accessibility seems to be limited to “you can zoom, increase text size and change colours” with no apparent grasp of the relevant issues. It’s assumed that users are able and no account is taken of why they might not be. The development of various much more simplistic online calculators is, in part, a reaction to that.

To give one example. In order to do something simple like increase the font size in QBC I need to… adjust my screen resolution!!! Sledgehammer to crack a nut or what! If I can squint hard enough I can go to “Configure” but it doesn’t offer any accessibility options. Amusingly, but somewhat typically in my experience, I can go into “Help” and that gives me an option to increase the font size… but only for “Help”.

I use that as an example as QBC is what I am obliged to use and not to single one product out. Nobody especially stands out in these areas.

Quite literally no-one seems to be working on an app. I wonder what would happen if we were to ask users/WROs what they would like to see in an app version of their favourite calculator.