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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Work capability issues and ESA  →  Thread

Permitted Work information - not complete

Andrew Dutton
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Welfare rights service - Derbyshire County Council

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I’ve noticed that the information on gov.uk concerning Permitted Work is somewhat incomplete - it lists 3 types of PW and leaves out PW without time limit for people in the Support Group.

Given associated threads concerning SG and WFIs, I am getting further concerned about the nature and quality of information that’s available to claimants.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/367561/dwp015.pdf
Permitted work

same again at https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/eligibility

Permitted work is work you may do if you get Employment and Support Allowance. There are 3 types of permitted work:
1 You can earn up to £20 a week without affecting your benefit.
2 You can work under 16 hours a week and earn up to £101.00 a week for up to 52 weeks. After doing permitted work for 52 weeks, you must wait another 52 weeks before you can do this type of permitted work again.
3 If your work is supervised by someone from a local authority or voluntary group because it’s their job to help ill or disabled people do work, you can work as many hours as you like as long as you don’t earn more than £101.00 a week. For example, this applies if you’re working in the community, a sheltered workshop or as part of a hospital treatment programme. You must be paid at least the National Minimum Wage

[ Edited: 30 Jan 2015 at 04:39 pm by Andrew Dutton ]
geep
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Does anyone know how good local authorities are at offering supervision to disabled people who want to work? If I’m not mistaken, ESA claimants cannot work in the long-term unless their work is supervised by someone from a local authority or charity?

I think my client is capable of doing some work, but his disabilities will put considerable restrictions on the type of work that he does and the amount of hours he does. I think it’s unlikley that he could work enough to earn more than his ESA payments, which is why he’ll need to do supervised permitted work. He wants to increase his income through employment, so just doing voluntary work is not an option.

I have asked his local authority to let me know what services they offer re. supervising work, but grateful for any advice that you can offer about helping people with disabilities to access supervision for their work. Also, is there any obligation on local authorities to offer supervision or is it completely at their discretion?

Dan_Manville
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geep - 11 February 2015 10:06 AM

I have asked his local authority to let me know what services they offer re. supervising work, but grateful for any advice that you can offer about helping people with disabilities to access supervision for their work. Also, is there any obligation on local authorities to offer supervision or is it completely at their discretion?

I’m pretty sure it’s discretionary; Wolvo has recently disbanded it’s Mental Health Employment Service due to the central govt funding reductions. Shame really as they were really effective and provided a gold standard service.

I doubt many councils will have retained provision for this kind of thing now that belts are so tight.

geep
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You’re right, Dan; the reply I got from my client’s LA was ‘computer says no’. I haven’t found any voluntary groups that offer an equivalent service either. I think my mum used to work with a disabled person who received supervision from a charity, and I seem to remember that they were gradually winding up their service too.

On a brighter note, after doing a bit more digging on the net I’m now a bit clearer about the different types of permitted work, and I can understand the concerns raised by Andrew in the first post in this thread - the info’ published by the government is not complete.

Anyway, I found the info’ on the Disability Rights UK website really helpful: http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/work-people-living-disability-or-health-conditions

The CPAG book also has the same info’ but it’s spread over several pages. Page 1020 (2014/15 edition) mentions the criteria for those in the Support Group.

My client is in the Support Group, so in theory he can work less than 16 hours per week without his ESA payments being reduced - as long as his wages stay below the higher limit?

I’ve had a look at the WCA assessment criteria again and I find it hard to believe that someone who scores enough points to be deemed as having limited cability for work would be able to do any work - even if it was less than 16 hours. I know that ESA is supposed to be for those that can’t work, but I don’t really understand how the permitted work rules can operate without the claimant’s eligibility for ESA being called into question.

I’m worried about telling my client about the permitted work rules only for him to be found as not having LCW due to the permitted work that he starts doing. The main reason he wants to do some work is to boost his income.

BC Welfare Rights
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Yes, he can work up to 15 hours 59 mins provided wages total less than £104 p/w.

If he is in the SG then he has been found to have Limited Capability for Work Related Activity as well as Limited Capability for Work, so eligibility rules are even tighter. However, there is no reason why someone who meets descriptor 1 (mobilising), for example, could not work with the right support. Stephen Hawking being an obvious example.

Remember that most of the descriptors just have to apply for the majority of the time, not all of the time. There is nothing that prevents people with fluctuating conditions, for example, from working when well and not doing so when they are not.  Many people will also meet the descriptors because of fatigue, etc., that would arise from working 8 hours per day but a few hours permitted work, say 2-3 days a week, can be managed.

GP Sick/Fit notes often address this directly, stating that client is fit for part time work but not full time.

It will always depend on what the permitted work involves and why the claimant has been found to have eligibility for ESA. There is always a risk that PW will trigger a non-LCW decision but then the whole LCW process is so random that he could be found fit for work anyway next time that he is assessed just because he admits to once going to a supermarket. If you are particularly worried about it suggest that he saves some of the earnings from PW just in case this scenario arises and client finds himself on £72 p/w pending appeal.

I’ve only done a couple of ESA tribunals where the person was doing PW but it was not a particular issue in either of them (they were both appeals won on mental health descriptors).

Gareth Morgan
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What would happen to someone dong permitted work at £100 a week if their pay went up to over £104; e.g. if the hourly rate changed unexpectedly?

BC Welfare Rights
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If you are employed and bust the earnings limit one week you are not entitled to ESA for that week. Hours can be averaged over a period but not earnings. ESA Regs 2008 40 (1) and (2) f and 45. ESA regs 2013 37 (2) (f) and 39 (CPAG 1020). From memory, there is no need to put in a new claim, entitlement to payment just stops for that week.
Self-employed earnings are averaged over a year (normally the last year for which accounts are available) or a ‘more appropriate period’ period if you have recently started self-employment, there has been a change which will affect your business or for any other reason it more accurately reflects your income & expenditure calculations (CPAG 266)
.
Edit - this is also ongoing http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/7748/

[ Edited: 12 Feb 2015 at 11:26 am by BC Welfare Rights ]
geep
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I overlooked the fact that the ESA test looks at ‘limited’ capability for work, not zero capability. I will bear that in mind from now on.

Having said that, my concerns were largely based on the fact that despite being a wheelchair user and having restricted movement in one side, following a stroke, my client is remakably mobile and can nail more of the descriptors on the WCA than most people would expect :)

On the issue of averaging working hours but not income for ESA… given that the permitted work limit is calculated using the minimum wage, would it ever be useful to average working hours? Any week where you do 16+ hours is likely to put you over the income limit and lose your enititlement to ESA for that week, so I can’t see the benefit of being able to average working hours. I think I’ve missed something.

BC Welfare Rights
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I’m not sure Geep, it might cover intern type scenarios, or work as part of a course. Pupil barristers are exempt from the NMW, I think. Or maybe it covers a situation where 16 hours p/w is relevant for something other than ESA?

geep
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Perhaps apprentices, too. I think they get a low hourly rate. Haven’t checked if you can do an apprenticeship while claiming ESA, but I don’t see why not given that permittted work is an option.

geep
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Apart from the permitted work rules which apply just to those in the Support Group, do the other rules apply in the same way to those who are still on the assessment rate as to those you have already been palced in the WRAG?