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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Universal credit administration  →  Thread

Scotland’s revenge: The death of UC?

neilbateman
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Whatever the outcome of the referendum, it seems that Scotland will have its own system of benefits to support housing costs

Though I have to say offering Scotland HB as part of devo max is the equivalent of offering someone a used handkerchief infested with germs.  Under devo max it also seems there could be different income tax rates/rules.  With independence, everything changes.

This surely has enormous implications for UC?  Even with devo max, there would be a different benefits system operating in Scotland.  How could UC operate there?

Is it viable if Scotland is not included? Could they still roll it out in Scotland if there are fundamental differences?  The unit costs of the UC IT become even greater not to mention the loss of economies of scale around DWP staffing.

What is the SNP’s view about UC?

Personally, I think there are huge implications which might just result in UC being ditched with IDS blaming the SNP.

What do others think?

stevenmcavoy
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the white paper commits to a few things under a yes vote.

stop the roll out of pip
stop the roll out of UC
end the bedroom tax
swap the interest rates back to the one that is traditionally higher (I can never remember if its rpi or cpi that’s usually higher)
triple lock for pensioners

if you only go on the white paper offer then its a few positives for benefit claimants but an overall stead the ship type approach.

the issue you raise re universal credit and hb being devolved hasn’t really been asked or answered from that I have seen and I have been following the debate pretty closely. 

your right though it would render uc up here a bit of a disaster and what they would do with the 250 or so claimants in inverness already is anyones guess.

neilbateman
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It’s difficult to see how they could continue to roll it out across England, Wales & NI if Scotland is not included.  Or at least not until all the changes to Scottish systems are made post March 2016.

stevenmcavoy
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more importantly will rights net host a scottish section if we return a yes vote or will the scottish wro’s be abandoned!

Gareth Morgan
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Filthy foreigners!  They’ll be coming over her taking our jobs and eating our goldfish.

(OOPS, just remembered I’m going to Glasgow tomorrow)

Steve_h
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McRightsnet?

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You’ll have to affilliate to Rights Advice Scotland Steven!

Bedroom Tax - Reg B13’s stated aim, with reference to paragraph 2 of MA, is to reduce underoccupation in Social Housing. Housing policy is devolved.  That surely should be a factor on consideration of whether discrimination is justified in Scotland. MA is not binding here; it is a decision of the Court of Appeal in England and Wales.

By implementing the bedroom tax in Scotland Westminster is using reserved powers to influence policy on a devolved issue… [ Fast forward to UT hearing; a glazed expression crosses the Judge’s face which may be interpreted as ‘if you think I am going to address that issue in my Judgement you are sadly mistaken’. And as night follows day; ‘Mr Cole, surely this is a housing benefit issue?’; ‘Yes it is clearly a housing benefit issue, this is a housing benefit appeal and if it isn’t then I’m in the wrong room, but it is a housing benefit issue which is seeking to influence housing policy which is devolved to Scotland, as evidenced by the Social Housing Charter introduced under the Scotland Housing Act…’

Is that so hard to understand? Clearly yes

Interpretation of other aspects of benefit law is already different here - take for example Trusts. What constitutes a Trust in England or Wales may not be considered to be a Trust here (interplay with the Requirement of Writing (Scotland ) Act - see R(IS)10/99 - so two claimants in exactly the same situation may have different entitlement depending on where they live.

As devolved powers create divergence of other areas of law it follows that it will be increasingly difficult to maintain the same benefit system in Scotland to England and Wales, whether devolved or independent.

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stevenmcavoy - 10 September 2014 11:46 AM

more importantly will rights net host a scottish section if we return a yes vote or will the scottish wro’s be abandoned!

We’ll always be here for you Steven!!

stevenmcavoy
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Phil Cole - 10 September 2014 01:14 PM

You’ll have to affilliate to Rights Advice Scotland Steven!

Bedroom Tax - Reg B13’s stated aim, with reference to paragraph 2 of MA, is to reduce underoccupation in Social Housing. Housing policy is devolved.  That surely should be a factor on consideration of whether discrimination is justified in Scotland. MA is not binding here; it is a decision of the Court of Appeal in England and Wales.

By implementing the bedroom tax in Scotland Westminster is using reserved powers to influence policy on a devolved issue… [ Fast forward to UT hearing; a glazed expression crosses the Judge’s face which may be interpreted as ‘if you think I am going to address that issue in my Judgement you are sadly mistaken’. And as night follows day; ‘Mr Cole, surely this is a housing benefit issue?’; ‘Yes it is clearly a housing benefit issue, this is a housing benefit appeal and if it isn’t then I’m in the wrong room, but it is a housing benefit issue which is seeking to influence housing policy which is devolved to Scotland, as evidenced by the Social Housing Charter introduced under the Scotland Housing Act…’

Is that so hard to understand? Clearly yes

Interpretation of other aspects of benefit law is already different here - take for example Trusts. What constitutes a Trust in England or Wales may not be considered to be a Trust here (interplay with the Requirement of Writing (Scotland ) Act - see R(IS)10/99 - so two claimants in exactly the same situation may have different entitlement depending on where they live.

As devolved powers create divergence of other areas of law it follows that it will be increasingly difficult to maintain the same benefit system in Scotland to England and Wales, whether devolved or independent.

interesting argument.

there are also differences in the carers status discount in scotland from the rest of the uk and i think we also have a differnce in bereavement allowance with the “habit and repute” stuff so there are some differences in the entitlement for scottish claimants already.

I also remember an argument around the scottish governments intention to increase the DHP budget and the fact they could only do so up to a limit, it was also argued that the Scotland Act that created the parliament might also stop this as apparently its within that act that the scottish government cant enact policy to deliberately go against uk policy…but then housing is devolved.

will you be trying to get assistance to judicial review your decision?

 

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Have advised client that we believe there are grounds to take it to Court of Session and can refer to Legal Services. Whether she would qualify for legal aid would then depend on an assessment as to the prospect of success.

Problem is any answer to this question is a political hot potato!

If the policy behind B13 is justified by the policy intent of reducing underoccupation (and later in MA as part of a raft of spending cuts) then given the Scottish Government is piling in money to mitigate the bedroom tax then in effect either:

‘It is justified for the Westminster Government to implement a policy that due to the differences in housing policy forces the Scottish Government to spend money in mitigation so that the Westminster Government can reduce underoccupation Social Housing in England and Wales’; or

‘It is not justified that people in Scotland face discrimination in order to reduce underoccupation in Social Housing in England and Wales’

Either way it’s a hot potato

Thus the type of judgement where you have to hope the Judiciary can at least play a mean pin-ball and I am left wondering what paragraph 2 of MA means if it doesn’t mean what it says… In effect the judgement has become ‘Government policy is justified because it is Government Policy without regard to the intent of that policy’, so back to the old ‘Judiciary shouldn’t interfere’ which has blighted the majority of case law on Human Rights before Burnip.

stevenmcavoy
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could you not find a lawyer to do a case like that pro bono?  would probably be worth it for the publicity!

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Hard to say. Could be professional suicide -  you’ll see how Judge Gamble deals with it… or rather doesn’t(attached). Good thing I’m not looking for a job at the moment!

File Attachments

Gareth Morgan
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Of course, if you wanted to be sneaky, you could say to Scotland - “You have HB devolved to you as promised” and then abolish it as Universal Credit is introduced.

What’s going to happen in the Universal Credit pilot in Inverness when HB is handed over?

nevip
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I haven’t considered this fully yet but if independence is gained what will be the status of the monarch in Scotland?  Given that, under the terms of the Scotland Act 1998, Bills of the Scottish Parliament currently require royal assent to become law, if the Queen is no longer the monarch in Scotland how is that going to work?  In such a scenario what power would Scotland have to amend that Act?  Thus enacting legislation such as repealing the Welfare Reform Act 2012 might take a wee while.  Or would Scotland become part of the Commonwealth retaining the Queen as its head of state?  I’m sure these things have been thought of but I’m curious to know more.

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I’ve never heard of any case where any Queen or King has refused to be Monarch, and Prince Philip seems happy enough to be worshiped: http://www.spectator.co.uk/books/9080981/man-belong-mrs-queen-review/
but otherwise we could have a competition along ‘apprentice’ lines. Congratulations Tam from Coatbridge; you’ve been invested. Sit on that lump of special rock. That’ll do. Now sign this!

stevenmcavoy
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I think all of that would form part of a post yes vote negotiation nevin but my understanding is that the white paper proposes the head of state remains the royal family in the interim.

from the discussions it also seems that a Scottish constitution is likely to be written post a yes vote.

Bryan R
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Scotland’s revenge is surely that Saltcoates in Glasgow - where they make the decisions on R2R & HRT - affects us all. Decision’s handed down by lovely Scots - this surely is a form of revenge.

nevip
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stevenmcavoy
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Bryan R - 17 September 2014 08:01 AM

Scotland’s revenge is surely that Saltcoates in Glasgow - where they make the decisions on R2R & HRT - affects us all. Decision’s handed down by lovely Scots - this surely is a form of revenge.

saltcoats isnt in glasgow :)

Bryan R
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Thanks for that. My ignorance know’s no bounds, Saltcoats Ayrshire . My apologies to the devolved Scots who use the site.

stevenmcavoy
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cant have you blaming one of the two yes cities can we!

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I can really empathise with Bryan on this. The DWP is playing havoc with my already poor grasp of Geography, and now the only place I’m certain of the location of is Wolverhampton. Saltcoats Glasgow makes more sense than Clydebank Wolverhampton. At least it’s in the right country!

On the central question of this thread I am sure that we will receive assurance soon that UC is on target and on budget and will cary on rolling out in its original form… Devolving Housing benefit? “Oh no, we didn’t mean it in that way. What we meant is that you’ll have to, sorry - be able to - fund your own DHP budgets after it’s scrapped everywhere else”. Oh…

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Exchange between Anne Begg, Chair of the W&P Select Committee and David Cameron last week -

Q42 Dame Anne Begg: You just happened to mention welfare, and there have been a number of suggestions about aspects of welfare that would lend themselves to being devolved to Scotland. Which areas of welfare do you think could or indeed should be devolved?

Mr Cameron: It is difficult to answer that because we are in the middle of the Smith commission process. I don’t want to say things that make the lives of my team—or indeed your team—on Smith more difficult. I think the basic principle is right. It comes back to how we try to settle the United Kingdom into a settlement that we feel is working for every part of the country.

I think you want to try to work out which of those parts of welfare are UK-wide and about the solidarity of being part of the United Kingdom. I would identify the pension system. I would say that everyone in our United Kingdom knows they have the right to a basic state pension when they retire and that they have all United Kingdom taxpayers behind them. That is something that I would not want to see devolved. In the referendum campaign and debate, that element of solidarity on the UK-wide pension came through strongly I can’t get particularly religious about other aspects of welfare. With the arguments about housing benefit and what have you, there is a strong case for saying you could devolve those and allow greater local decision making.

Q43 Dame Anne Begg: If you were to devolve housing benefit, which is due to go into universal credit when it is rolled out, that would mean that the roll-out of universal credit in Scotland would take a different form from that in the rest of the UK. Are you quite relaxed about that?

Mr Cameron: This is where we have to let Smith do the work on this issue. Given that universal credit is taking within it so many different benefits—that is the whole point of it—you cannot rule out anything. You can’t say that anything involved in universal credit cannot be subject to devolution.

Dame Anne Begg: So the six working-age benefits going into it—

Mr Cameron: If you are saying, “Might universal credit work differently in Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom?” that would be a consequence of that, but I don’t want to go any further or I will put stones in the pond and create problems.

Q44 Dame Anne Begg: You mentioned pensions. Is there anything else about welfare that you would say is sacrosanct and should be a UK-wide responsibility?

Mr Cameron: To me, pensions are the most fundamental. You could make arguments about others both ways.

Q45 Dame Anne Begg: And you would be quite relaxed if your welfare reform agenda was slightly derailed if some of these aspects get devolved.

Mr Cameron: I hope not, because I think that welfare reform is necessary and that it is being successful. The number of people on out-of-work benefits has radically reduced in Scotland and in the rest of the United Kingdom. The country is getting back to work; unemployment numbers are down in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom. It is important that we get the welfare bill under proper control. Working-age welfare is still a very large bill and there are still ways we can better allow people to keep more of their own money to spend as they choose, rather than taking if off them and giving it back to them in various welfare payments, but we have to let Smith do his work.

Q46 Dame Anne Begg: That is an argument for keeping everything at Westminster and not devolving anything.

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/committeeevidence.svc/evidencedocument/liaison/evidence-from-the-prime-minister-2014-15/oral/15649.html

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Meanwhile: “The Scottish Liberal Democrats have given their backing to the transfer of powers over welfare to the Scottish Parliament.”

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30153907

shawn mach
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From LITRG -

‘LITRG has recognised the potential benefits of tax devolution to Scotland but cautioned that full account should be taken of welfare benefits interactions in setting rates and thresholds of a devolved income tax ...’

More @  http://www.litrg.org.uk/News/2014/141125-PR-Scot-devol-incometax-welfare

shawn mach
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here we go ......

Report of the Smith Commission for further devolution of powers to the Scottish Parliament ...

http://www.smith-commission.scot/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/The_Smith_Commission_Report-1.pdf

benefit stuff starts at para 42 ..... rightsnet news story on its way ...

shawn mach
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here we go ...

Power over disability and carer benefits and elements of universal credit to be devolved ...

... and new powers for Scotland to create new benefits in areas of devolved responsibility and to make discretionary payments in any area of welfare

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/news/story/Power-over-disability-and-carer-benefits-and-elements-of-universal-credit

 

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BBC reporting that a draft of the Smith Commission’s recommendations included devolving power to vary all the key elements of Universal Credit

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-30245135