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“Needs assistance to be able to get in or out of a bath or shower”
Ok, someone had to go there:-
Do you score 3 points if you need help getting into a bath, even if you can get into a shower unaided (disjunctive reading), or do you have to require help with both a bath and shower (conjunctive reading)?
Neither reading seems particularly sensible: since I can’t imagine anyone who needs help getting into a shower being able to get into a bath unaided, it would have been simpler just to specify one of the two things as the benchmark and leave it at that.
If the disjuncitive view prevails, this will mean that someone who needs help getting into a bath scores more that someone who needs help washing their hair and feet: a tad generous?
But if the conjunctive view prevails, this will mean someone who needs help getting into a shower scores less than someone who needs help washing their back.
It’s whichever you have - if you only have a bath, or a shower over the bath then you have to be assessed as whether or not you can use that. If you have both a bath and a walk in shower, then it’s whichever you can be reasonably be expected to use - for example, you might be able to use a shower, but not be safe when you were in there.
It might be useful to have a look at the PIP assessment guide at 3.3.23 about aids and adaptations, the first point if which is whether the client actually possesses the appliance and whether it is reasonable for them to do so. It’s arguable that if someone would be able to use a walk in shower but doesn’t have one then it is unreasonable to expect them to have one fitted, and so they would therefore require help with getting in an out of the bath.
Thanks Ali, very useful. I suppose that is a more sensible interpretation, but I was being mindful of the principles from the cooking test, and the related ESA cases such as the buttons case, that it’s functions that are being tested without regard to the claimant’s personal home arrangements. PIP may well be different.
Bump, as I’m still not entirely convinced. In Schedule 1 it is provided that ““bathe” includes get into or out of an unadapted bath or shower”.
This seems to suggest that the bath or shower is a hypothetical, unadapted, bath or shower.
The Upper Tribunal has decided that a claimant can score 3 points if unable to get in and out of an unadapated bath without assistance despite being able to manage a shower.
http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4841
Just in time for a case I have coming up where it will matter.
The Upper Tribunal has decided that a claimant can score 3 points if unable to get in and out of an unadapated bath without assistance despite being able to manage a shower.
http://www.osscsc.gov.uk/Aspx/view.aspx?id=4841
Just in time for a case I have coming up where it will matter.
and i noted that was in a case where the claimant in fact had an adapted bath that had been put in by previous occupier
the point was the “or” in the descriptor (bath OR Shower)
Can someone clear this up for me as I’m confused….
If I have an adapted bath/shower which I can use independently (because of the aids/adaptations) I would score 2 points under 4b right? (obvbiously assuming it was accepted that I reasonably require the aids/adaptations).
Does the CPIP 2094 2015 mean that I would now score 3 points under 4e because I would need assistance to get in/out of a hypothetical unadapted bath/shower?
My understanding is that descriptors 4(b) and (e) are both satisfied, so (e) applies as it is the higher scoring.
Unfortunately for my sins I too am disabled. This hypothetical bath could well be lodging in the same house as the phantom wheelchair that is used in the ESA descriptors? I have not used a bath for over 35 years preferring instead to have a shower instead of sitting in grimy bath water. The difference as I see it is that with an adapted bath you can simply walk/shuffle out of it via a door. This could be made easier (and avoiding the need for physical help) if a suitable hand rail was also installed.
Whether I could use this imaginary bath I have no idea. Maybe the answer is that we do away with the bath idea and substitute it with a 57cm high imaginary fence that you would be asked if you could climb over it?
Has anyone made an argument using the same logic for increasing 5b to 5d?
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage toilet needs or incontinence. 2
d. Needs assistance to be able to manage toilet needs. 4
“toilet needs” means –
(a) getting on and off an unadapted toilet;
Can someone clear this up for me as I’m confused….
If I have an adapted bath/shower which I can use independently (because of the aids/adaptations) I would score 2 points under 4b right? (obvbiously assuming it was accepted that I reasonably require the aids/adaptations).
Does the CPIP 2094 2015 mean that I would now score 3 points under 4e because I would need assistance to get in/out of a hypothetical unadapted bath/shower?
as i read it, yes
if you cannot get in or out of an unadapted bath you score the points, irrespective of the fact that you have an adapted one.
ditto re shower
Has anyone made an argument using the same logic for increasing 5b to 5d?
b. Needs to use an aid or appliance to be able to manage toilet needs or incontinence. 2
d. Needs assistance to be able to manage toilet needs. 4
“toilet needs” means –
(a) getting on and off an unadapted toilet;
Yes, a couple of years ago in post 10 here
Not run the argument to date.
I had a PIP FTT this afternoon, and this was one of the disputed points. My client has a shower most days (shower over bath) and was awarded Nil points by DM due to this, despite the fact when he has a bath he seizes up and requires help to get out of it.
I had argued the recent UT decision (Judge Rowley – disjunctive etc.) regarding this, but also stated in order to get in his shower he leans on sink to get in and out of the bath (unadapted).
The outcome today was that he was awarded 2 more points for this Activity, presumably for the use of the sink as an aid, but from the line of questions I believe they did not award the 3 points as he can get in and out of the bath, despite the fact he needs help to get out if he actually has a bath.
Although not worth raising as it is only for 1 point, I thought it was interesting that if he can get in/out of a bath he doesn’t score points – despite the fact he couldn’t lie/sit down in the bath without then needing help to get out. May have been interesting to take it further.