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Forum Home  →  Discussion  →  Disability benefits  →  Thread

What is a person approved by the Secretary of State

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J.Mckendrick
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All I can find in the PIP Regs with regards medical examinations is..

In this regulation, a reference to consultation is to a consultation with a person approved by the Secretary of State

Can anyone tell me what such a person is (approved by the S of S) and where in the regs or act does it state this. Many thanks,

Ruth_T
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I’ve wondered about this as well.  Lots of people carrying out PIP medicals describe themselves as “healthcare professionals”, whatever that means.    One client complained recently that he was examined by an “ambulanceman”.

J.Mckendrick
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Have just found this in the DWP PIP assessment guide…

4.1. Health Professional Competencies
4.1.1. All HPs recruited for the delivery of PIP assessments (or any parts of these) must meet the following requirements:
• Be an occupational therapist, nurse (level 1), physiotherapist, paramedic or doctor

So it looks like an ambulance man/woman are accepted. NB The DWP PIP guide is what it says on the tin ‘guidance’ with no legal force. This guidance can be made up to suit the DWP’s and Health Professional’s view of assessing Pips.So again is it stated in any legislation what a person approved by the S of S is.

nevip
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“So again is it stated in any legislation what a person approved by the S of S is”.

No it isn’t.  For PIP the phrase first appears in the Welfare reform act 2012, s80(4)(c), and then in the PIP regs, reg’9, and is defined in neither.  So, it essentially means anyone who the Secretary of State thinks fit.  However, there is a presumption against absurdity in English law so the approved person must be someone with some kind of medical qualification and training and not the proverbial bloke next door.

There is a definition of Health Care Professional in reg’ 2 of the ESA Regs 2008 to mean doctor, nurse, OT or physiotherapist and while that doesn’t bind the SoS for the purposes of PIP assessments he will, more than likely, use that as his template.

J.Mckendrick
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Many thanks for the last, as I have found out that one of my clients was assessed as like Ruth T by a paramedic. Surely this must be challenged either at the FTT or UT.

Jon (CANY)
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CE/3202/2013 is (I think) the current ESA caselaw on weighing medical evidence from healthcare professionals.

Was thinking about citing this in a PIP case, where the ‘approved person’ has decided that the claimant doesn’t score on the mental health activities because her account on the PIP2 form is “not consistent with her level of medication” (claimant is on anti-depressants .. do the DWP have guidelines on what different dosages show??). The DM approves this as “the clinical findings and observations of someone practised in making such assessments”.

As this was a “paper based consultation” (i.e., just reading the PIP2 form) from a nurse with no MH qualifications, I think I could argue that little weight should in fact be attached to the “clinical findings”?

Geri-G
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J.Mckendrick - 03 July 2015 07:58 AM

Have just found this in the DWP PIP assessment guide…

4.1. Health Professional Competencies
4.1.1. All HPs recruited for the delivery of PIP assessments (or any parts of these) must meet the following requirements:
• Be an occupational therapist, nurse (level 1), physiotherapist, paramedic or doctor

So it looks like an ambulance man/woman are accepted. NB The DWP PIP guide is what it says on the tin ‘guidance’ with no legal force. This guidance can be made up to suit the DWP’s and Health Professional’s view of assessing Pips.So again is it stated in any legislation what a person approved by the S of S is.

It is someone that has gone through all the Disability Analyst training as decided by SOS. Paramedics are allowed to be approved as they have an increased level of medical knowledge.Ambulancemen wouldn’t be approved.

Re Pip assessments on mental health, assessments are done based on a balance of probability and if a client has no further mental health input or further medical evidence and they are on a low dose of anti depressants eg 20mg of Citalopram, they very likely aren’t going to pass a PIP assessment.Low dose is the stuff all GP’s give to their patients to see how they get on. I get round this by asking them to speak to their GP to see if they require an increased dose (if they aren’t coping on the initial dose, they should probably get it increased anyway), or ask them to be referred for specialist input eg CPN, Counsellor, Psychiatrist etc. If there is a long waiting list in the area (as there is on mine), I state this on the PIP2, or if they are on other medication where anti d’s would affect it.

J.Mckendrick
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Just out of interest - The DWP PIP Assessment Guide 28/7/15 at point 4.1.1. at bullet point 4 states that Health Professionals MUST have 2 years post full registration experience in order to act as a Health Professional ie Reg 9(5) PIP Regs 2008 ....“a person approved by the S of S.”

Have just done a check on the Health & Care Professions Council (HCPC) website re registration to discover that my client’s HP was a paramedic registered from 1/9/13, the medical taking place in February 2015. Whoops - can’t be approved by the SoS then!

Looks like an avenue to always look into regards suitability of HPs.

Looks like it can’t be long before aromatherapists are expected to carry out PIP assessments etc.

John Birks
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There is a big difference between an ‘ambulanceman’ and a Paramedic.

See two jobs, both from Universal Jobmatch which may help shed light.

There is no Aromatherapist qualification I can see. However, looking at the The Health and Care Professions Council (HCPC.)  A regulatory body set up under the authority of Parliament to protect the public, Art Therapists could be included??

http://www.hpc-uk.org/

<1>

Job Role: PIP Assessor Disability Analyst
Location - Manchester
Contract Type: Temporary and Substantive Roles Available
Salary: Excellent rates of pay

About Pennine Acute Hospitals Trust PAHT:

Serving the communities of North Manchester and the surrounding areas, the PAHT provides a range of elective emergency, general and specialist services across four sites. PAHT has been commissioned by the Department of Work &Pensions; DWP to provide a high quality assessment service for claimants of Personal Independence Payment PIP
Hays Healthcare is proud to be exclusively working in partnership with PAHT, to assist in the recruitment of clinical practitioners to underpin the service.
This assessment will allow the DWP to then make an informed decision on a claimants eligibility for Personal Independence Payments.
This is an exciting opportunity to join an exceptional trust with ongoing opportunities for professional development.

Job Role / Key Accountabilities:

As a Disability Analyst with the Pennine Acute Hospitals Trust, you will be joining a team of highly skilled and qualified health care professionals.
This job would be suitable for Nurses RGN, RMN, Occupational Therapists and Physiotherapists

On a daily basis, the post holder will deliver a high quality assessment service for claimants of Personal Independence Payments, assessing against the criteria set out by the DWP. This assessment report advises the DWP about the claimants health condition and disabilities, any treatment they are receiving, how the health conditions affect the claimant in relation to activities of daily living and mobility, which descriptors apply to the claimant and evidence based justification for the advice given.
Of course, the post holder should ensure an excellent level of customer service at all times.
In brief:
Conduct detailed assessments
Carry out simple physical assessments when necessary
Accurately record observations and formal clinical findings
Produce a high standard of report in line with DWP guidelines
Deliver training and guidance when appropriate to other Assessors
Contribute to service development, training and mentorship

Applicants new to this environment will receive full training ensuring, with both clinical and practical modules covered.

Person Specification:

This is a fascinating role that combines clinical practitioning skills underpinned empathy, respect and sensitivity for those involved in the process. Applicants are encouraged from the following backgrounds; Nurses RGN, RMN, Occupational Therapists and Physiotherapists
Prospective applicants should consider the following prior to submitting their applications:

NMC / HCPC registered
Appropriate knowledge of the clinical aspects of a wide range of health conditions and disabilities.
3 years post registration experience within an NHS or similar healthcare environment
Above average IT Skills report writing is a key component
The ability to plan and prioritise own work patterns and time management
Produce accurate and thorough reports
Salary
28,000.00 - 34,500.00 per year
£28000 - £34500/annum Excellent benefits

<2> & also

Doctor - Medical Assessor - Stockport We are currently looking to recruit a Doctor on behalf of our client for a Functional Assessor position in Stockport. Our client is a well-established international company who run healthcare programmes all across the UK. They are currently working in partnership with the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) providing Assessments for those in receipt of or claiming benefits. You will be responsible for providing comprehensive reports to enable decision makers at DWP to make informed decisions regarding a range of DWP claimants. This is an exciting time to join the organisation as they are growing rapidly, with new opportunities nationwide. Working in a role such as this is perfect for clinicians who want to utilise their clinical knowledge/ experience in a professional setting. The salary for the role is £68,000 - £72,000 + benefits.Full Time position or Part Time (3 or 4 days) opportunities. Office Hours Benefits: - 25 days annual leave (plus bank holidays)- Full training provided for which you are paid a full time salary- Private medical insurance- Professional registration fees covered- Contributory pension scheme. A stakeholder pension scheme in which you can choose to sacrifice any amount from a minimum of 2% of your salary. The Company will match your contribution up to a maximum of 10% of your basic salary.- Professional registration fee reimbursement- Flexible benefits which you can choose to buy in to on an annual basis such as:- Dental insurance- Travel insurance - The option to buy and sell annual leave- Childcare vouchers Minimum requirements: Qualifications as a Registered Medical PractitionerMinimum 2 years’ post-qualification of broad based healthcare experienceEligibility to live and work in the UKFull unconditional registration with the GMC

Salary
68,000.00 - 72,000.00 per year
Hours of Work
Annual hours

J.Mckendrick
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I was only being pedantic regards the aromatherapist! I still believe the role of a paramedic should be challenged in assessing PIPs. Paramedics are highly trained people but are predominantly concerned with emergency and immediate life threatening situations. However with regards physical disability a physiotherapist would work in a controlled and calm environment and is trained to treat people over a prolonged period, unlike a paramedic. Also I am not too sure what mental health training a paramedic would have.

Edmund Shepherd
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J.Mckendrick - 08 August 2015 11:57 AM

Also I am not too sure what mental health training a paramedic would have.

Or a Physio/Occupational Therapist!

John Birks
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J.Mckendrick - 08 August 2015 11:57 AM

I was only being pedantic regards the aromatherapist! I still believe the role of a paramedic should be challenged in assessing PIPs. Paramedics are highly trained people but are predominantly concerned with emergency and immediate life threatening situations. However with regards physical disability a physiotherapist would work in a controlled and calm environment and is trained to treat people over a prolonged period, unlike a paramedic. Also I am not too sure what mental health training a paramedic would have.

Probably the best? Frontline experience with daily contact (from my limited knowledge.)

J.Mckendrick
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Sorry to harp on about this but I have just had another one yesterday where the Health Professional has under 2 years registration when carrying out a medical. Therefore are such HPs falling foul of any medically ethics in not being qualified to act as an HP and does the DWP have a responsibility to check out all HP’s qualifications etc.

John Birks
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Sorry to burst your bubble but I’ve performed a random search of paramedics using Jones and Birks as reference and the same date appears.

It’s more likely the date of registration on the system is simply that - rather than a date of qualification.

J.Mckendrick
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4.1.1. clearly requests 2 years REGISTRATION and the HCPC site shows the REGISTRATION date - it seems that they are more bothered about REGISTRATION than experience.

John Birks
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Your Caps lock seem stuck on

Paramedics
Paramedics provide specialist care and treatment to patients who are either acutely ill or injured. They can administer a range of drugs and carry out certain surgical techniques.

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Paramedic

Number of registrants: 21,384 (01/07/15)

Professional bodies:

Each of the professions regulated by us has at least one professional body and/or association. These organisations do work which may include promoting the profession, representing members, curriculum frameworks, post registration education and training and continuing professional development. Whilst these organisations are separate from the HCPC, their role may be complementary to ours, which is why we have provided their contact details below:

College of Paramedics
The Exchange
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TA6 4RR

Telephone: 01278 420 014
Fax: 01278 421077
Web:www.collegeofparamedics.co.uk
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Next renewal start date: 01 September 2015

Next renewal end date: 31 August 2017

[ Edited: 14 Aug 2015 at 10:12 am by John Birks ]