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Non Dep deductions for under 25’s on ESA WRAG post April 2017
I have just noticed in the HB Guidance that there will still be a non-dep deduction in HB for under 25’s who are placed in the WRAG post April 2017.
Whilst the claimant is in the assessment phase there won’t be a non-dep deduction from HB but as soon as they are assessed as ‘unfit for work’ then there will be a deduction, even though they will not be getting any extra money for being in the WRAG!
I haven’t looked at how the amendments to the ESA Regs themselves work yet, but I’m assuming that an under-25 year old in the WRAG will have the same applicable amount for ESA(ir) as they would have had before 2017, but minus the component so they still go up to the 25+ rate of personal allowance. If so, that explains why there will continue to be a non-dep deduction in HB after the component is scrapped. To save me the bother of checking that, maybe someone who already knows can confirm that under 25s on ESA(ir) will get £73.10 a week once they are in the WRAG group?
No, that’s the thing, they don’t, they remain on £57.90…
Unfortunately that is correct - that’s another nasty surprise (re the HB NDDs).
I’m only just working through the HB changes on this.
The relevant part of HB Reg 74 - subpara 8 now looks a bit odd….
(8) No deduction shall be made in calculating the amount of a rent rebate or
allowance in respect of a non-dependant aged less than 25 who is–
(a) on income support, an income-based jobseeker’s allowance or an income related
employment and support allowance which does not include an amount
under section 4(2)(b) of the Welfare Reform Act (the support component) or where the non-dependant is not a member of the work-related activity group; or ...
It seems to me that on one reading this could be parsed as allowing non-deps under 25 with a support component to get a nil NDD.
I read that as any under 25 who has been assessed and put into either the support group or the work related activity group is liable for a non-dep deduction. Only under 25’s in the assessment phase have a nil NDD.
I haven’t looked at how the amendments to the ESA Regs themselves work yet, but I’m assuming that an under-25 year old in the WRAG will have the same applicable amount for ESA(ir) as they would have had before 2017, but minus the component so they still go up to the 25+ rate of personal allowance. If so, that explains why there will continue to be a non-dep deduction in HB after the component is scrapped. To save me the bother of checking that, maybe someone who already knows can confirm that under 25s on ESA(ir) will get £73.10 a week once they are in the WRAG group?
It’s answered here - http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10798/P15/#50610
I read that as any under 25 who has been assessed and put into either the support group or the work related activity group is liable for a non-dep deduction. Only under 25’s in the assessment phase have a nil NDD.
Yes - I’m sure that’s the intention and that’s what will happen - it just that the drafting is ambiguous.
I haven’t looked at how the amendments to the ESA Regs themselves work yet, but I’m assuming that an under-25 year old in the WRAG will have the same applicable amount for ESA(ir) as they would have had before 2017, but minus the component so they still go up to the 25+ rate of personal allowance. If so, that explains why there will continue to be a non-dep deduction in HB after the component is scrapped. To save me the bother of checking that, maybe someone who already knows can confirm that under 25s on ESA(ir) will get £73.10 a week once they are in the WRAG group?
It’s answered here - http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/10798/P15/#50610
I can’t seem to find whether this applies to HB as well. i.e. under-25s in WRAG, has the applicable amount been limited to the lower rate?
....
I can’t seem to find whether this applies to HB as well. i.e. under-25s in WRAG, has the applicable amount been limited to the lower rate?
This part of the HB regs has been left unchanged but the higher (£73.10) rate for under 25s on ESA depends on being on ESA (Main Phase) which ( for HB purposes ) is defined as ESA with a component.
So, for HB, ESA claimants in WRAG under 25 will only get £57.90 unless they have a transitionally protected WRAC.
Hmmm - the amendment of para 21 of Schedule 3 to the HB Regs has the side effect of making it impossible for claimants under 25 to get the higher personal allowance unless they are in the support group:
- you get the higher personal allowance if you are on main phase ESA: para 1
- being on main phase ESA means satisfying each of the three conditions in para 21: para 1A
- one of the conditions in para 21 (all of which must be satisfied) now requires you to have LCWRA. The primary purpose of para 21 is to govern entitlement to a component, but at a stroke this knocks out the higher personal allowance as well.
Harsh but I suppose you can at least see a consistent joined up policy. But the treatment of non-deps under 25 is just perverse: if they are signing on (whether JSA or UC) they don’t have a deduction applied, but if they are sick they do; and if they live in a UC full service area they don’t have a deduction applied (because all non-deps under 25 on UC without earnings are exempt from non-dep deductions), whereas in live service they do have a deduction because they cannot claim UC.
Hmmm - the amendment of para 21 of Schedule 3 to the HB Regs has the side effect of making it impossible for claimants under 25 to get the higher personal allowance unless they are in the support group:
- you get the higher personal allowance if you are on main phase ESA: para 1
- being on main phase ESA means satisfying each of the three conditions in para 21: para 1A
- one of the conditions in para 21 (all of which must be satisfied) now requires you to have LCWRA. The primary purpose of para 21 is to govern entitlement to a component, but at a stroke this knocks out the higher personal allowance as well.
.....
Sorry - yes you’re right - I was looking at the reg 2 definition of “main phase” but missed the “except in part 1 of Schedule 3” tacked on at the end.
I still think It remains the case that transitionally protected ESA (WRAC) claimants will still retain the higher personal allowance - the changes to HB schedule 3 won’t apply to them ( because of the savings provision in Schedule 2 para 1 in the amendment regs.)
I’m now thinking about the issue with NDDs and wondering if there’s any hope of transitional protection ( for NDs under 25-already getting WRAC ).
Schedule 2 to The Employment and Support Allowance and Universal Credit (Miscellaneous Amendments and Transitional and Savings Provisions) Regulations 2017 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/204/made ) starts with:-
“(1) The .... amendments[including changes do the HB regs] do not apply where any of the circumstances in subparas (2)-(7) apply.”
Para (2) ( for example) is “Claimants who have made a claim for employment and support allowance before 3rd April 2017.”
Claimant isn’t defined for Schedule 2 (part 1) but claim means a claim for ESA (and not HB).
A non-dep under-25 already on ESA WRAC will be someone to whom para (2) [or (3)-(7)] applies - does that mean that HB regs should be read as if the changes to HB Reg 74(8) hadn’t been made (in respect of that non dep) - it seems a bit of stretch - does anyone have an opinion?
I’m now thinking about the issue with NDDs and wondering if there’s any hope of transitional protection ( for NDs under 25-already getting WRAC ).
Schedule 2 to The Employment and Support Allowance and Universal Credit (Miscellaneous Amendments and Transitional and Savings Provisions) Regulations 2017 (see http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2017/204/made ) starts with:-
“(1) The .... amendments[including changes do the HB regs] do not apply where any of the circumstances in subparas (2)-(7) apply.”
Para (2) ( for example) is “Claimants who have made a claim for employment and support allowance before 3rd April 2017.”
Claimant isn’t defined for Schedule 2 (part 1) but claim means a claim for ESA (and not HB).
A non-dep under-25 already on ESA WRAC will be someone to whom para (2) [or (3)-(7)] applies - does that mean that HB regs should be read as if the changes to HB Reg 74(8) hadn’t been made (in respect of that non dep) - it seems a bit of stretch - does anyone have an opinion?
Housing Benefit circular (A4/2017) seems to agree.
“14.There will be some ESA cases post April which continue to have access to the WRAC. These are covered in Schedule 2 of S.I. 2017/204. For example, they would include ESA claims made or treated as made before 3 April 2017. For those cases, the savings provisions in Schedule 2 paragraph 1(1) of S.I. 2017/204 apply. This enables you to continue to treat such cases as if the amendments in the SI had not been made; including awarding the work-related activity component in HB where one has been awarded in ESA.”
Housing Benefit circular (A4/2017) seems to agree.
“14.There will be some ESA cases post April which continue to have access to the WRAC. These are covered in Schedule 2 of S.I. 2017/204. For example, they would include ESA claims made or treated as made before 3 April 2017. For those cases, the savings provisions in Schedule 2 paragraph 1(1) of S.I. 2017/204 apply. This enables you to continue to treat such cases as if the amendments in the SI had not been made; including awarding the work-related activity component in HB where one has been awarded in ESA.”
Yes, although para 14 only actually spells it out for WRAC-in-HB-app-amount it reads as if they mean that to apply to all the HB changes (hopefully including non-deps). I suspect some LAs will need some prodding to do this for NDs.
This is doing my head in! Could someone kindly please explain to me what will happen in the following case. Cl. has a very severely disabled son (DLA HRM & HRC). She gets IS as his carer (but not on CA - someone else is also his carer & gets CA), & is also on full HB & CTS. In April he is 20 & CB stops, so he has to claim ESA. His disabilities are such that he should undoubtedly go into Support Group. (If DWP don’t accept that, I’ve no doubt a tribunal will!)
What rate of ESA will he get once he is in Support Group? Will there be an NDD, & if so how much?
Any help gratefully received.
This is doing my head in! Could someone kindly please explain to me what will happen in the following case. Cl. has a very severely disabled son (DLA HRM & HRC). She gets IS as his carer (but not on CA - someone else is also his carer & gets CA), & is also on full HB & CTS. In April he is 20 & CB stops, so he has to claim ESA. His disabilities are such that he should undoubtedly go into Support Group. (If DWP don’t accept that, I’ve no doubt a tribunal will!)
What rate of ESA will he get once he is in Support Group? Will there be an NDD, & if so how much?
Any help gratefully received.
No changes for support group - so assuming he gets income-related ESA with support component then it will be a nill NDD for HB [ignore that bit - it’s rubbish!] expect a lowest rate NDD for HB (and in most areas a nil NDD for CTS too.)
[ Edited: 25 Mar 2017 at 12:01 pm by Jon Blackwell ]